Transcript of AE 1143 - Interview: English Teacher to Car Mechanic in Japan with David Rajaraman | Part 1

G'day, you mob. Welcome to this episode of Aussie English. I am your host, Peter Smissen, and it is my pleasure today to bring you an interview with David Rajaraman. Now, David was on the podcast all the way back in episode 934. So, if you haven't listened to that episode, go and check it out before listening to this one, so that you can catch up and be up to date on where things are at with him.

Today, in the first part of this two-part series, we're going to chat to David about how he went from an English teacher to working as a car mechanic in Japan. What it's like working as a foreigner in Japan and in Japanese. He uses the Japanese language on a daily basis. You know, what it's like working with Japanese people, at Japanese companies, applying for jobs at Japanese companies as a foreigner, life as an international citizen.

David was born in India but was then raised in Brunei and has studied and lived in many other countries, including Australia. After that, we'll talk about Japanese culture as a foreigner and trying to integrate into Japanese culture. The good versus the strange aspects of Japanese culture as a foreigner. Internal and external expectations of the usage of your second language when you reach really, really high levels in that language.

What it's like being married to foreigners. David and I sort of share our battle stories of both of us being married to a Japanese person and a Brazilian person respectively, and sort of the nuances that go on at home with our cultural differences and linguistic differences. And we talk about much, much more. So, without any further ado, guys, I give you David Rajaraman.

David G'day. How's it going, mate?

Great. It's been a nice morning for me. How about you? How are you doing?

I'm good. I'm good. It's about- What is it? Almost 1:00. So, we're early. We started early. But, yeah, chugging along. Chugging along. Been okay. Man, it's so funny. That background is so good. I'm like, is that his actual background? And then I realised I'm like, he's kind of- It's funny, you can sort of realise this in Zoom where the backgrounds better quality than the image of the person.

Yeah.

You're like, oh, nah, that can't be. There's no way.

Yeah, yeah. This is the background that I'm aspiring to, one day.

A nice little bonsai over the left shoulder there, too.

Yep, yep.

Mate, so I wanted to get you back on just to obviously have a chinwag. We caught up on Instagram recently, so I thought it would be cool to just hang out. You're living a very different life from me at the moment, obviously. So, for a bit of background, do you want to tell the listeners where you currently are, you know, what you're doing, everything like that?

Sure. So, hi everyone. My name is David. I live in Japan right now. Nagoya is the name of the city where I live. It's known for being home to the world's well most well-known car company, the Toyota Motor Company. Their factory and a lot of their subsidiaries, factories are kind of not too far from here. Like, they're scattered around this area. And I currently work as a car mechanic.

Well, "car mechanic" at a used car dealership, about a 15-minute drive away from me. Yeah.

So, why did you say "car mechanic" with quote unquotes on the end? For people listening, obviously, we do that in English when it's kind of like, you'll say something is a certain way or you would describe it a certain way, but it's not. And so, you make that signal, right...?

Yeah.

...Oh, yeah. Like I'm a "doctor". I have a PhD, but I don't really consider myself a "doctor", you know?

Yeah. Yeah. So, it's funny how it all started. I was working at this- At the main distributor for Daihatsu vehicles in this state and I was just, I was in their project management team for one of their overseas projects. I was doing that for like a year and a half.

I got into it initially without really knowing what I'd actually be doing at the company. I just thought, hey, I'm teaching English now. I've always wanted to work with cars, so this is an opportunity I don't want to pass up.

And so, I joined that company and then it just felt like I was back in university again because most of what I was doing was just sitting in front of a computer typing up these, like, you know, these book long reports. And I thought, no, what I really want to be doing is, is tinkering on cars. And that's, you know, that's what I've loved for as long as I can remember. And so, I quit, and I just started looking for jobs online.

And I found this car shop, this car dealership. And like, I knew of them because when I was shopping around for my car a year and a half ago, I did come across them and I knew they weren't too far from where I lived. I ended up buying my car from a different place, though. And they specialise in sports cars. That's kind of all they sell. I thought, yeah, this has got to be fun. And I saw their job listing, which said "no experience required"...

Done!

...And I thought, hmm. You know, I got no- Well, I've got more experience than the absolute noob because I at least know how to work on my own car. And so, I applied, went for the interview. And basically, what I originally applied for was for working as a body repair tech. And that's because, as far as I'm concerned, I think being a mechanic is mostly just loosening and tightening bolts and nuts and exchanging parts.

You're not actually- I don't think it actually requires a university education to be able to do it. And that's not a very nice thing to say to mechanics, but hey, you know. Whereas I think doing body repairs is a little bit- I think it requires a lot more skill that's acquired through experience. And I thought, yeah, I can learn to be a mechanic on my own. Like, I don't think I can teach myself body repairs, at least to do it really well.

Why do you think that body repairs is much more, by the sounds of it, complicated than being a mechanic? Is it that there's a lot more, I don't know, creativity or that the variables are more complicated? You can't just put one part in, take another part out. You actually have to be using your hands or changing things based on your intuition and education and everything like that. Is that the main reason?

Exactly. Yeah. So, like, take, for example, like a car that's been in a crash.

Yeah.

Your job as a body repair tech is you've got to straighten that chassis out to being as close as possible to what it was before the crash. At the very least, when you finish your repairs on it, the customer shouldn't be able to tell that it was in a crash. At the very least, even if it's kind of slightly off-centre underneath and stuff.

So, I think it's a bit more of an art form, requires a keen eye, an eye for detail. You're not necessarily measuring everything. There is a subjective element to it.

I imagine, too, that there's a lot of ramifications with safety if you get it wrong too, right? Like I imagine you've got to do a pretty good job and understand what you're doing for safety's sake. Whereas I imagine there's that aspect for mechanics, too, you know, if they set up things the wrong way inside of a car.

But I again, as a layman, I would imagine that it's a little harder for you to screw the car up accidentally, whereas if you don't straighten the chassis out completely, I imagine that there are like, you know, those sorts of issues you're going to potentially lead to that car having massive problems down the track that can't just be fixed by going to a mechanic.

Yeah, yeah. Or at the very least, the customer's going to feel something different, something's off.

Yeah.

Like it's going to be pulling to one side, that sort of thing. You know?

Yeah.

But yeah. Anyways, I went for the interview and basically what I was told is, look, I know you've been tinkering on your own car for years, but what we really need you to do is learn how to be a professional level mechanic before we're going to let you do body repairs. I was like, you know, if I can eventually get to body repairs and if this also means I can get a mechanics licence through the, like, the work experience requirement, why not?

That's a pretty good deal. It's better than going to school and paying for it. And so, I joined. And then later on, what I found out was they had just lost one of their mechanics who just quit unexpectedly, and they desperately needed somebody to fill that spot. And so, what they'd done is they had another mechanic who actually had a licence and they kind of promoted him from like the car wash dude to doing more mechanical work.

And then I was like the car wash dude. And what happened is that guy who had just recently been promoted, he abruptly quit. And so, they needed somebody to do what he was doing. And so, they got me to do a lot of those, like, mechanical stuff. So, I was doing actual mechanics work for about three months, and they got this new guy to be like the car wash dude, but he quit and then so did another guy.

Why are all these people quitting, David?

It's not- Well, they've got a high rate of people quitting.

By the sounds of it.

Yeah. And so, when that guy quit, like the new guy that they hired was actually a licenced mechanic who used to work at another dealership. And so, they got him to do all the mechanical stuff, and they demoted me back to being the car wash dude.

It's been that way for like six months. And I thought, well, if none of this experience would actually qualify, so if I went right now to go and take the- So, I've been working there for almost a year. If I was to go and take the test to get my mechanics licence, none of this experience would qualify for being sufficient. They'd be like, you haven't actually been a mechanic for a year, so.

Yeah.

So, we're not going to give you your licence. But man, I've been screwed around and it's a terrible feeling.

Is that- What's their reasoning? Is it that you don't have enough experience for them- I mean they seem to put you in there though, when they don't have anyone. Right. So, what would the reasoning be for just dicking you around like that?

I think it's been like a combination of things. I definitely do think there's a trust issue.

Yeah.

Because I don't have a licence. Like, I don't have a formal education. I'm not out of a trade school or any of that. So, I think that is one aspect of it. There's no objective way that they can gauge how much I know and how much I don't know. And the guy that used to be, like, the head mechanic who's been there for seven years, he left to go and start up his own workshop or actually take over his dad's workshop.

And he was just this weird guy who's like super old school with a lot of his outlook on life and the world. He just assumed that I knew absolutely nothing and that I was absolute shit at everything I did, even when I was actually doing things just completely fine, you know? So, like the business owners- Like, I think his evaluation of me and my work was largely based on what that previous head mechanic would just tell him.

And so, yeah, it kind of sucks. Like one example is, I think the business owner had the impression that I had no idea what I was doing when it came to car electrics, electronics and stuff and about how the circuits work and that. And the weird thing is that when this newer mechanic who's licenced joined, he actually had no idea.

And whenever he was tasked with installing like a navigation system or speakers or sound system, he'd always come and ask me, and I'd be teaching him. I'd be like, hey, this wire does this, and this is how you're supposed to connect this. And that's what it's going to do.

And so, like, you know, here I am teaching the guy who's got the licence. Like I understand enough to be able to do that, and yet they think it's the other way around. And it's kind of hard, I guess, to change that perception. If I don't- If I'm not licenced, I don't really blame him.

Is this more about then what's on paper than what you're actually capable of that matters?

Yeah. I wouldn't say so. I think it's just a matter of them being such a small operation, which has just so few people. They don't actually have a system in place for accurately evaluating what I can do and can't do. So, it's- I think it's a combination of things. One, is that I don't have the piece of paper.

And on top of that, they don't have a way of- They haven't bothered to figure out a way of actually evaluating what I can and can't do.

Yeah, I feel like it's one of those things, though, you'd work this out if you're working in a team, right? You would just be like, David, do your thing. And when you run into trouble, communicate with the team and let us know where you're running into trouble. And then within a few weeks, you would imagine they'd get a pretty good picture of what you can handle and what you can't handle, especially if your work is being checked. Right?

You're not just- David's taking care of this car for our client and no one's checking his work and then it's just going out to the client. And David was also just saying he can do everything and so we're going to trust it. You'd be like, surely you have your checks and balances in there to verify what he's actually capable of and you can come to a conclusion pretty quickly. But yeah, annoying.

So, did you end up leaving this place and you're applying for another job now, right?

I haven't left yet. I'm still working there, and I don't plan on submitting my resignation letter till I have another job to go to. So, I have applied for this new position. It's also for a body repair tech. And this time it's not at a car dealership, it's actually this company that operates like a network of rental vehicles and car sharing stuff. And they've got coin parking lots and things like that as well across the country.

So, they have like their own body repair workshop for their fleet and it's for a position there, and it specifically says "no experience required" like we're actually- But this time it doesn't...

It's a trap. It's a trap.

I mean, I'm not really going to know for sure until I actually start working there, right. But at least they say that they'll- They've got a training system in place for new techs, so. Yeah. And their- In terms of like their working conditions, their working hours, the number of holidays and stuff, they seem like they care about their stuff.

Well, that's always a good place to start. Well, I hope you get it. And yeah, hopefully no one at the current company is learning English or Australian English who've come across this and be like, I recognise that guy. So, I guess I wanted to get you on the podcast besides obviously catching up and just shooting the breeze. Living in Japan. How long have you been there now?

It's been five years in total. Three years this time, like, it's my second time here.

Okay, so you had a break in between, did you?

Yeah. Yeah, I was in Malaysia for four years in between.

Okay. And so, yeah, I guess I wanted to get you on to sort of talk about what life is like there, working there, everything, have an update for the previous episode. I think that was episode 934, if my memory serves me correctly. I was looking at it this morning, I can't actually remember episodes like that. But yeah, so Japanese people, I think- Japan is the country that listens to my podcast the most outside of Australia.

So, I thought it would be cool to chat to you about getting a job there as well and working for Japanese people. Because I think the majority of people I come across who live in Japan, it's related to English teaching and typically I think some of them may learn Japanese to a sort of rudimentary level where they can communicate a little bit.

But I don't think they ever really get like a job in a Japanese company, and they have to deal with the language, the culture there, because I know that the working environment is very different from how it is elsewhere in the world. You've obviously got a really interesting background too. Do you want to quickly recap where you're originally from and the countries that you've sort of passed through as well?

Yeah, sure. So, I'm Indian. I was born and raised in Brunei, went to university in Australia and worked there a little bit as well while I was a student. Then, yeah, worked here in Japan, I was a student in Malaysia as well for four years and now I'm back here in Japan.

Animal. Animal. I think we were talking about this last time, and I was kind of like, where do you feel like you belong, right? Like where is your home country? Because that must be such an interesting life to have lived. Right. So, do you feel at home anywhere in the world, like even if it's a specific place? Or do you feel like it's you're more of a global citizen as a result of that?

I wouldn't say I feel like a global citizen, but I know for a fact that when I was in Australia it felt more like home than any other place that I've been. And I've put that down largely to just the Australian people and their culture. I think it's a really welcoming place for anyone, and I think it's not because I'm very Australian. I don't sound Australian.

Well, I guess it depends on how you define that. Right?

Yeah.

When you go to Melbourne you are very Australian. Right. Like if I was walking... Well, you know what I mean where if you go to Melbourne or to Sydney or to Brisbane and you walk around the CBD, it's more likely than not, at least in Melbourne when I was there at Uni, it's more likely than not you're going to encounter someone speaking a foreign language who can speak English but is speaking a foreign language and is of a different race.

And so, you know, your background is effectively the- What would you say? It's sort of like what Melbourne and those large migrant populations now in Australia are kind of characterised by. It's the fact that you were born elsewhere, you do potentially speak another language as a native language. It's almost like the wasps, right?

The white Anglo-Saxon Protestant Westerners are kind of becoming the minority now in Australia, which is, you know, good and bad, depending on what your view is. But I definitely love that aspect of- I keep saying this to my listeners all the time. I love the fact that Australia is somewhere that you can come. Don't speak English. Learn English. Get your visa permanent residency. Get your citizenship. Get a passport.

And you're effectively as Australian as I am. You may not have the accent, but for all intents and purposes, you're Australian now, right. And this was that interesting thing I think we touched on last time, but I can't remember. We can talk about it now. Having gone from there, like living in Australia and thinking Australia felt like home then and going somewhere like Japan where the culture is completely different, right.

And it is much more homogenous. They have a very strong racial, ethnic language, linguistic identity, like China, like Korea. Was that a kind of real shock to the system when you came from such a diverse country that had migrants everywhere who can integrate and become Australian as much as anyone else?

And you go to a country where I think, again, correct me if I'm wrong, but even if you were to become Japanese as a citizen or whatever, culturally, you're probably going to be seen as a foreigner for the rest of your life, right? There's no, you're as Japanese as me.

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I don't think- There is a growing migrant population here in Japan. It's just a lot of international students moving here from like Vietnam, Philippines, China. But I think still even for people- There's probably documentaries about this on on YouTube. Even for people who are like, say, half Japanese, half someone else and who are born and raised in Japan.

Yeah.

Everything they know is Japan and Japanese. Right. Even they aren't fully. The way they're treated isn't such that they're fully accepted as true Japanese people, even though if the circumstances were exactly the same in Australia, they would be, right. And so, I think Japan as a whole just isn't- Hasn't gotten used to the idea of people who look different or sound slightly different and we can still be Japanese.

And I think tied in with that as well as a lot of the etiquette and the cultural norms that everyone is just kind of expected to conform to. So, even if you deviate slightly from that, it's not a case of, oh, you're different and unique, and that's okay. It's oh, you're doing something that's not Japanese.

Yeah, it is such an interesting thing, right. Because first, I guess I'm thinking, oh, well, the main reason that's different between Australia and Japan is Australia, at least modern Australia, you know, prior to- I mean post the colonisation of Australia is very young, we're only 230 years old, right, as a nation. Whereas Japan's got thousands of years of history.

And I think it's- Unlike the colonisation history where people from all over the place came all at once. And so, there was no -- apart from the indigenous people -- there was no kind of like one race, although, I guess you could make the argument that originally it was the white people from the United Kingdom, although there was a lot of hatred there for the Irish and the Scottish and everything like that.

But Japan has had this somewhat more consistent racial and linguistic heritage where Australia pretty quickly became very, very, very diverse. Right. Especially throughout the 18th and 19th- 19th and 20th century after the wars and everything, and we had massive amounts of migrants come in. But then it's interesting to think, I guess about the UK.

The UK probably arguably has a similar sort of history where it's been there for thousands of years with white people from the UK living there. But it's experienced huge amounts of migration to the point now where I feel, again, I've never been there.

But as someone who knows a lot of British people, it seems like, you know, someone like yourself who didn't grow up there, wasn't born there, could move there and could get a passport, get a visa and boom, you know, become a citizen and your British like, you know, every other Brit.

Whereas it is interesting that countries, I guess like Japan and, you know, the most extreme example is probably China, where there's just no real history of large-scale migration. And so, they're not used to that idea of having many different races and many different languages and everyone still belonging to the same country.

Yeah.

So, was that something that was kind of difficult to get used to when you came there from Australia? Was it off putting or did you sort of get into the flow of it pretty quickly?

I wouldn't say it was off putting. It did feel lonely in the beginning because- And I think a big part of that was just not being able to communicate.

Yeah.

You know, having certain things that you want to express and just not being able to was a big part of that. And to the point that on my first holiday, so when I moved, my first time I moved to Japan, it was from Singapore. My brother is Singaporean now, a naturalised Singaporean and I was living with him for a few months just filling the gap between university and work in Japan.

And on my first holiday, I had a week off and instead of travelling around Japan, which is what most people would do, I got on a plane and went to Singapore at the place that I've been to tons of times where nothing is new to me. But I had to go there just because I felt so homesick.

And, you know, my brother was just like, why are you here? Those were literally his words. The first thing that he asked me after greeting me, he's like, why are you here?

Do you need money?

And I had to explain, I just said, look, I just felt lonely. And he was like, oh, okay. Well, that makes sense.

That sounds like something, though, that Japanese people are struggling with today, again, from the outside. But I keep hearing from Japanese people, I keep seeing news reports or news stories from journalists, and I also see the odd documentary coming up here and there that they have an epidemic of loneliness that's sort of creeping in.

Again, this is probably happening worldwide to some extent, I think, with social media, and then the way that things are, I think people, ironically, despite being more connected than we've ever been, feel like we have less close relationships than we had in the past. So, what is the experience like in Japan with that?

Does the average Japanese person that you would interact with sort of worry about those sorts of things, experience them or know people who experience them? One example that I came to- My mum told me the other day, she watched this doco about, I think it's mainly young men who just cut themselves off from the world and then play video games all day at home.

And their parents' kind of allow this lifestyle to continue, but then also don't talk about them, like they kind of sweep it under the rug and keep it quiet. And I found that really, really interesting. I think there are those sorts of people here in Australia, but nowhere near a million of them.

Yeah. I think it's- I don't know. There's this- I'm sure there's one little thing that I've noticed as a non-Japanese person here. I feel like there are a lot more people here than I've seen anywhere else in the world who talk to themselves and where that sort of behaviour is completely normal, like talk to themselves out loud and that's completely like normal, accepted.

Like, nobody's going to kind of look at them and go, oh, that's unusual. It's...

What context? Like whilst having coffee with friends or walking in the street or at home by themselves? Like, when does that sort of thing...?

Not necessarily when they're with other people, because then they've actually got someone to talk to. But like- Like you could be just out in the grocery store, right. Or like in the car park or something. And this dude would get out of the car and just be like, oh, man, it's hot. And I can understand like, yes, it is hot. It's a hot day. Yeah, we all get it. But like, who are you talking to, though?

It's not like he's coming up to me and be like- And being friendly and saying, hot day today, isn't it? It's more like, oh, man, it's hot.

I had- Again, hopefully no one calls the race card on me and starts, you know, trying to shame me. But my instant reaction there was, is he African American? Because they seem- They're- Culturally African Americans, at least again from TV shows, the ones that I know from movies are really extroverted, you know, as a kind of stereotype. Right.

And so, you will get those people who enter a room or are just around and they'll be like, "goddamn", you know, out loud. So, that everyone kind of hears them and sees them. And it's such a really cool part of their kind of cultural behaviour that, yeah, I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that myself, you know, just walking outside- Unless I had friends around me and I was kind of, again, yeah, talking to them.

I wouldn't do it on my own, right. But...

Yeah.

So, you reckon- Is that something you've noticed increase, or you just notice that as a cultural difference that people will be, I guess speak aloud when they're on their own more frequently?

I just think it might be like a cultural difference. And at the same time, it does have me wondering, like, is it because people here are, I guess, just feel more lonely? Like they've got- They're just not able to express a lot of their inner thoughts. I think in addition to that, like you're expected to always put on this kind of outward appearance of everything's good, everything's fine, you know, being completely perfect.

And because of that, I think that can be pretty taxing on someone. So, when they do get kind of put on pressure, even if it's something as trivial as just being a hot day, like that's kind of their avenue to kind of get that off their chest and get that off their mind. And I do find myself asking myself that, I'm not really sure. I don't know if I have the answer to that.

What happens when you- You speak Japanese fluently, right? And you at work would be interacting mostly in Japanese, I imagine?

Yeah, entirely in Japanese, yeah.

What happens when your behaviour, your westernised kind of cultural behaviour seeps through obviously into Japanese? Do you get a lot of weird responses from people or do they kind of allow you to get away with certain things because they can see, you know, this guy is not Japanese in terms of race, he probably has an accent, so we'll give him a pass and not assume these things?

Or do they- Are there these weird experiences where you are, say, more extroverted or honest or open than, say, the average Japanese person and it kind of subverts expectations?

I definitely am more honest and more, like, say what I mean kind of thing compared to the average Japanese person. But it's not in- It's not in a way that gets me in any trouble. Have you heard of a term called the "gaijin card"?

Is "gaijin" the term for, like, "foreigner"?

Yeah, it just means foreigner.

Yeah. Yeah. Gaijin card. Okay. So, you mean, like you can just play the gaijin card all the time. Just be like, yeah, I'm a dumb foreigner. Don't know. Just gaijin card.

I mean, that's the negative stereotype of what it is. But I think it's like- It's not necessarily me playing the card intentionally, but like whenever I do say or do something or behave in a way that's not typical Japanese. Even if it- Like, if a typical Japanese person were to do the same thing, it actually might offend the people around them. But in my case, people are just willing to forgive it.

They just don't feel anything negative about it whatsoever.

That's funny, though, right. That happens a lot, I think in any language when you're learning a language. Like I get away with so much shit in Portuguese that I think if a native Brazilian Portuguese speaker were to say or do, people would be like, that's not okay, dude.

But because it's me and- I guess that's when you know you're probably at a really, really high level in a language when you no longer get away with that kind of stuff, they no longer give you free passes on mispronouncing certain words, using swear words in the wrong position or the wrong place, or, you know, not understanding that hierarchy of politeness or impoliteness.

And it is just something really funny that I'm like, I never know whether or not to get offended by the fact that I get away with those sorts of things. Because I'm like, if I keep getting away with this, it's because they're kind of like, you know, pat on the head, little kid. Oh, he's doing his best. You know, like...

Yeah.

But at the same time, I kind of don't want to be responsible for my actions and be held to account every single time, so. Is that something you lament or is it something that your kind of like happy that you get the gaijin card?

I'm not- I guess it depends on what it is, you know, like. I think if it's something where I know myself that I ought to know better or that this kind of behaviour wouldn't be acceptable anywhere, let alone here in Japan, then I want people to take it the way they're supposed to.

Yeah.

And chances are, I'm probably behaving that way because I want- I'm trying to be offensive.

To pause you there. I guess that's the difficult part, too, right? If you're trying to be subtle with how offensive you're being, they may not necessarily perceive that because they keep giving you the benefit of the doubt all the time. And David's like, there you know, he's calling someone a fuckhead and they're just like, oh, he's just- He doesn't actually mean that, right?

Like he's just- He's confused and your like, no, I'm actually really angry.

Yeah. And then there's times where, like, yo, like, there's no way you can expect me to know this sort of thing, right? This is not universal. This is actually not common sense; despite how much you think it is.

Yeah.

If anything, what you guys are expecting is makes no sense whatsoever to the common person.

Can you give me an example?

Okay. Let's say it's to do- Okay. So, I think- This is an interaction between my wife and I. Right.

Is she Japanese?

Yeah. Yeah. My wife is Japanese. Right. So, it's always interesting how, like, my wife would ask me a question. Hey, do you think we should do this? And I think it's a good idea, right. So, I'm like, yeah. Okay. That's my response. "Yeah. Okay." Now, if you did that in Japanese, right, that actually means you're not okay with it.

I love, too, the fact that you're married to the person and having these interactions where you have like these layers when you're married to someone and or in a relationship with someone for a long time of like understanding these nuances of their responses as well...

Yeah.

...And overthinking- I have these interactions with my wife all the time where she'll say- I'll say something like that, you know, do you want to do this? And she'll respond. And I'd be like, are you angry? And she'll be like, no, I just wasn't excited. I wasn't- Do you want me to do a dance? Like, what do you want from me? I'm tired.

You get into this habit of being, like, almost too sensitive to reading those responses. But okay, so is that a stereotypical thing in Japanese where if someone were to ask you, you need to sort of be more enthusiastic with your response to actually show that you want to do it, as opposed to that- I guess you could be polite by saying, yeah, I'll think about it. And that's actually no, no, no, that's not happening. You know?

Yeah. So, I mean, it's- There's like so many layers to it. There's like not only do you have to be more enthusiastic with your yes, but you need to actually kind of engage in this artificial back and forth to start discussion. So, it makes it seem like you've actually deliberated and pondered over the idea before saying yes to it.

Okay.

And taken an interest in it in that process. So, the whole, "do you think we should do this? Yeah. Okay." That's not how you respond to it...

Why are you so angry, Dave? Why don't you want to do this thing? I said, yes.

Yeah. And that's exactly what my wife would say. She'd be like, why don't you think it's a good idea? Or you don't agree? And she'd actually be like, ready to go on full on argue with me over it. I'd be like, I didn't say no. I didn't say I disagree. Did you hear what I said? I said, yes. Okay. I said, yeah. Okay. So, is that the end of discussion?

Did you ever read those books growing up of like Mr Happy and Mrs Know-It-All?

Yes.

I was- So, I was reading one of those to my son last night. My wife found these on the side of the road. Someone had left a basket out with all these old books, and instead of throwing them out, they just put them in a basket and they're for people. She walked around the corner and was like, oh, there's some books. I'll grab them for Noah. These were like obviously books from when I was a kid. They were like made in the '90s, early '90s.

So, I'm reading Mr. Muddle where he muddles everything up, right. So, it goes through the book and effectively shows how like when he tries to- When he wants to have a shower, he accidentally steps into the sauna or you know, when he wants to go for a swim, he accidentally climbs a hill because he keeps muddling everything up.

You know, he tries to have breakfast and he pours the milk on the bread and puts his sugar in the butter or something like that. The book kind of has this really interesting turn where he starts interacting with other people in the town, and so he goes with a fisherman to try and go fishing and the fishermen's like, can you push the boat into the water? And he pulls it further up the beach.

And then when he goes in the boat and they're out there, he's like, let's throw a hook in the water. And Mr Muddle dives into the water. And the funny thing about it is, like by the end of the book, the guy that went fishing with him works out he needs to ask the opposite thing to get Mr Muddle to do what he wants. So, when they get to shore, he says, can you put the boat in the water?

And Mr Muddle pulls it up on the beach and it's like Mr Muddle was really happy and Mr George was really happy. And then he starts having all these interactions with everyone else in town and they finally worked out they have to ask him to do the opposite thing, for him to actually do what they want him to do, and everyone ends up way happier.

So, I guess it's a kind of long story of saying that, which is a really funny thing where yet culturally at times it seems like you need to get used to these- You have to get used to doing something that is not necessarily what you would do or could even be the opposite reaction of what you would have in order to sort of get used to those norms for everyone to be happy.

But it is difficult when you're like, I guess in Japan when you're there, you are the one that has to kind of capitulate and be the, I'm trying to work as best I can in the framework of Japanese culture. Do you ever- When your wife and you go overseas, do you ever pull the "tables have turned bitches"? You know, now it's your turn, you know, to get used to everything else. I'm in my hometown. This is my, you know, this is home turf.

We're in Malaysia. We're in Singapore. It's your turn to be the awkward foreigner.

I don't think- I think right now that would be really refreshing. But I think- Because after moving here the second time, like, we haven't really had a chance to go abroad.

Yeah.

Just because like the whole COVID and all that. So, I think the next- When things do settle down, when we finally do get to travel abroad, that's probably going to be how I feel.

You need to work out- You need to sit down- There's a book, I've forgotten what the cultural book that talks about loose and tight cultures.

Have you heard of that book?

No, I haven't.

Let's see if I can find it. It's by a woman. Rule makers, rule breakers. How Tight and Loose Cultures Wire Our World by Michelle J. Gelfand or Gelfand, I think. G-E-L-F-A-N-D. She talks about how different cultures are loose versus tight, right.

Like, so Australia's a loose culture where we tend to be very relaxed about these things and Japan's sort of the other extreme of being very tight culture, having a very specific rule set of how you behave, hierarchies at work, all of that sort of stuff.

And I think the book- I've heard her interview, I haven't actually read the book, but she was talking about how there's always benefits, there's trade-offs and benefits to any of these things, right. So, like in times of crises, you probably want a tight culture that's going to follow a strict hierarchy, whereas in times of, you know, lots of money and peace and everything, you'd want a looser one where the rules aren't as strict.

But it'd be interesting if you worked out which country is the loosest country in the world that I could take my wife to and then just be like, set her among the pigeons, right? You're the fox, she's the pigeons, and you're just like, let's go- You probably need to go to Brazil, something like that.

Or like during Mardi Gras or during Carnival, I want to say. Mardi Gras. Carnival and just be like, you know, you're putting on this suit, we're getting in the street, we're dancing, you know, let's see how you go.

Oh, yeah. Definitely want to give that a try. I would love to give that a try.

Has she been out of Japan much?

Yes. Like before we got married, like, travelling was like one of her hobbies, or if you could say that. Like, she's been to more countries than I have.

Oh, wow.

...I lost track of which countries. But like, yeah. Like she's been to Australia, Morocco...

Wow.

...Singapore, Malaysia, I mean those are countries I've been to. The US, Canada, like she's been all over the place.

Wow. It sounds like Brazil probably won't be much of a shock then.

Yeah.

But it is funny. Like all the Japanese people I tend to meet in Australia are- I would imagine they're not a good representative of the average Japanese person. Right? The same way I would imagine the average Australian you'd meet somewhere like Brazil is probably not a good representation of the average quote unquote "Australian". Does that tend to ring true for you? Have you noticed that?

Yeah. Yeah, totally. I think the average- There's a typical Japanese person you might meet in Australia would be- Would fall into one of two categories. One is, they're from a really wealthy family where they can afford to kind of just, you know, not have any worries about anything else going on in Japan and just get on a plane and go to Australia for a year or two.

And then the other type would be people who are just so detached from the Japanese way norm of where everything you think about and care about is your job, your work, your career. They're the kind who want to be the rebels. They're the hips- The hippies of Japan, if you can call them that. They're the type to say, you know what? I want to throw everything away and I want to be free and just do what I want and live my own life.

And they'll just get on a plane with not much money, but they'll just be like, yeah, I don't know how things are going to turn out. I don't know anybody where I'm going, but I'm just going to go there and see what happens.

I met one of those the other day. I went back to jiu-jitsu, which is why you can see my face is a bit smashed up. And he was on the mat, and I remember chatting to him and being like, where abouts are you from? And it was funny. Initially he's like, Japan, where are you from? I was just like, oh Jesus, I didn't mean it like that. I wasn't like, you know, go home immigrant. I was just curious.

And I was telling him about Aussie English and everything. And then he loosened up and he was like, yeah, I just came over here and I'd learnt English at school and then just winged it. And he had really, really good English. I was actually really impressed. He was like, I haven't studied English.

I just came over here and kind of picked it up. And then just is learning to code on his own. And he's just like, yeah, I pretty much just learn to code. I've got a wife here. Yeah, I'm just doing that and jiu-jitsu and this is my life. And I was just like, yeah, you're not the average Japanese person. By the sounds of it.

I remember I need to talk to him more, I was like, I need to chat to you on the podcast because I would love to know more about, you know, and many of the listeners will be these kinds of people, but those people who decide, I don't like what I have at home, my culture or not even necessarily not liking it, but having an urge to go elsewhere. Right? I always felt like that kind of a person in Australia.

I never really wanted to- From a young age, I never wanted to necessarily live here forever. I kind of wanted to go overseas and experience other cultures and other places, other languages. I never wanted to marry an Australian. I was always pretty set on like, I want to marry someone who speaks a different language and comes from a different culture so that they can bring that to the family, effectively, right.

So, that we have that difference. Like I have- My sister's married to her, effectively her high school sweetheart, and they have an amazing relationship, but they grew up in the same town. And so, I always feel like, I mean, I'm potentially missing out on the kind of bond and what would you say, simultaneous knowledge of just life, right?

Like they completely understand each other's context, whereas my wife and I are constantly discovering new things about one another and each other's languages and cultures, because it's kind of like- Even after four or five years now of being together, she'll just do some really dumb shit, I'll think. And she'll be like, what do you mean? This is just normal. Like, what are you talking about? This is just- This is what we do in Brazil.

And I'll be like, are you serious? And then I'll do some really dumb shit, you know, thinking that that's the norm. And she'll just be like, what the hell is that? Like, what do you mean you don't just- What's a good example? Oh, she'll have like, so there's this food called farofa, right?

It's effectively- It's kind of like a large tuber- It's like a big, big, big potato, but it's native to South America and they grind it up, it's poisonous, so they have to treat it a certain way in order to be able to consume it. But they'll use it as a condiment, right? Sort of like you add it to rice. And initially when you do it, when you have it, you're like, this just tastes like shit.

Like this just made everything way worse. And then within about two meals, you're like, I can't ever imagine eating rice without this thing again.

Wow.

But she'll go to town where there'll be more of this. It almost looks like flour, but it's a little coarser. There'll be more of that on the plate than there is anything else. And I'll just be like, when I first had it, I thought someone had just put a packet of chips in a blender and just buzzed it and it was just effectively like sand.

And yeah, those are one of those things where I'll be like, do other Brazilians do this? Are you sure they do this? I feel like this is a really weird thing, right? This is kind of like cutting your toenails in your bed, right? It's just like no one does that, you know?

But what's it taste like? Is it purely just there for the texture or does it actually have a taste or flavour to it?

I think, again, I'm assuming it would probably have originally been just a really good carbohydrate source and they mix it with a lot of other things to kind of flavour it. So, you'll have I think onion, salt, bacon, dried bacon, other things that are kind of ground up and added to it.

And it's just this savoury- It's like a really coarse flour that's just savoury. But if you were to mix it with rice and then you have it in dishes where it's kind of paired with, what would you say, sauces.

So, they'll have it with something called feijoan, which is like beans, but with like a lot of liquid with it. And feijoa, though, which would be beans and meat and bacon and- Not bacon, but like sausages and other chorizo sort of things. And when you sort of combine those two things, you have the rice and the fa- farofa, and then the meat and the beans and the sauce. It's just insanely good. It's insanely good.

But it is one of those things where you first have it and your just like, what the hell? Because it's so outside of your cultural context. Like, we have a very Asian strong background when it comes to how we consume rice in Australia. It's typically white rice. It's going to be that almost sticky white rice that's been cooked a certain way, very Japanese style.

I think where they use large kind of machines, they'll put it into sushi and sashimi, and you get it that way and you kind of get really used to having it like that. And then so when they add their own kind of take on it or that's very traditional in Brazil, I think farofa is kind of like everywhere throughout Brazil.

But I'd never had it ever before and I remember just being like, you've just adulterated. How dare you break these rules of how we consume this food? But it's really good. It's really good. I definitely recommend trying it.