Transcript of AE 1038 - Interview: How to Get your English Beyond the Intermediate Plateau with Milene Sales | Part 2

G'day, you mob. How's it going? Welcome to this episode of Aussie English, the number one place for anyone and everyone wanting to learn Australian English. Today is going to be an awesome episode. I harassed my friend Milene Sales to come back on the podcast for a second time. And that's how long the podcast has been around, we're getting guests who've come back 2, 3 or even 78 times like my dad in the Goss' episodes.

Anyway, I got Milene to come back. She was on episode 637 where we talked about how she had come from Brazil to Australia and become an English teacher here in Australia. That was her full-time job and her career. Now Milene is an absolute machine. She is incredibly productive with her time. She has been a full time English teacher. She was a Zumba instructor. She was a bodybuilder or is a bodybuilder as well.

So, she wears many different hats. She is a woman of many talents. I wanted to get her on the podcast today to hear about how she is upskilling and changing careers as a result of COVID. So, this is much more a sort of interview about a migrant who's moved to Australia, built a life in Australia and has had to adapt here as a result of COVID and change career path.

Today is part two of this interview with Milene, and we're going to be talking about how to take your English from that intermediate level to advanced and keep getting better and better and better.

Lots of us learning languages, whatever language that is, tend to get to fluency and find it relatively easy once we're there. But it gets really difficult to keep improving, improving, improving without a plan, without tips, without advice. Okay, so that's what you're going to get out of this episode. Smack the bird. Let's get into it.

Do you have advice for older people, I guess what adults learning these skills for how to kind of not- Develop a thick skin, so that you can handle criticism? Because I think that is a big issue, that a lot of people, including myself, you know, we have when getting criticism or advice back, often it's hard. Whether or not you get offended it can be hard to stay motivated and positive.

You know, it's pretty easy to feel like, oh, my English sucks, you know, I'm never going to get good at this. Is there sort of advice you would have for students when they're working through these issues or trying to improve certain aspects for how to not take these things personally and still stay incredibly optimistic or positive? Or is it just part and parcel of it? You know, you're going to have ups and downs.

It's a bit of both. Yes, feedback is crucial to improvement. We can't discuss that. We need feedback. I would say focus on the content. Don't take things personally. I've had horrible feedback of my classes back then, you know, being deferred by managers and everything.

But when I look back, I'm like, I am just a- I feel I'm a better teacher today because I've had that feedback. And as much as it hurt at the time, I didn't do something about, you know, the issues they pointed out, and I became a better teacher. And I, you know, like the suffering. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes it hurts. Sometimes people- It's- You know what that is. It's our ego.

Well, for me, I feel like it's, you know, you're at surfing and a shark suddenly bites your leg. And the surfer next to you is like, dude, he's biting you. And you're like, no, he's not. And you're like, all right, he's not. And like, you're the only one that can fail, right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Be humble. It's so funny now that you mention that I remembered a few occasions on which I gave students feedback and they got really cross and, you know, like, they confront you. I'm like, you can't confront me it's the grammar. It's not me wanting you to change. It's just that your grammar is not right...

There's no arguing your way out of this situation.

Yeah, exactly. And I'm like, do not resist, you know, choose the path of least resistance. I heard it somewhere...

Be like water.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Look, changing- Going through a process of change, your beliefs or learning something is hard and people want, I don't know, something that alleviates their pain and there's no such thing. You have to go through it, you know, and this is what, yeah, what bodybuilding is about as well. This is what so many- And being a parent, I bet, is about.

Well, it's short term versus long term, right. You have to weigh those two things up. So, a lot of the time, this is what my wife and I kind of have difficulties with, whether it's her, my wife, Kel, or whether it's me wanting to alleviate the current suffering for us where our child is having a tantrum, you're like, alright, fuck it, I'll buy you the car that you want at the supermarket, just get off the ground and stop crying.

And it's like, okay, well, that's going to help right now. But in the long run, every single time I go to the supermarket, he's going to be doing the same shit and require the same response if I don't nip this in the bud right now and sort this behaviour out.

And it's the same sort of thing I feel like with improving in something, you can- People can just ignore your mistakes or your errors, or you can do that, and it'll feel good in the short term, you'll be like, you know, I'm on top of the world.

I feel great because no one's correcting me because they're too afraid. But it's at the cost of the long run, right, where, well, you're not going to improve as quickly as you could otherwise improve, whether it's English or jiu-jitsu or Zumba or whatever it is, because you're just totally blind to your errors and ignoring them.

Yeah, yep, that's pretty much it. We can't avoid going through pain, whatever the kind of pain it is. Enjoy the process, as, you know, as painful as it must be. You will come out the other end much stronger, much wiser and, you know, such as life, just, you know, grin and bear it.

Something I've wanted to ask you for a while is, how have you found your English improvement since coming to Australia? Have you found that you've made significant improvements? Has it been something that you've had to put a lot of conscious effort to or into if you've tried to improve? Has it happened gradually by itself?

I guess I'm asking that to sort of preface this first because I found with speaking Portuguese at home with my wife, at first, I was putting in a shitload of effort of learning all this new vocab and reading and studying, and I was improving a lot, but after a certain amount of time, it sort of just got easy.

And I just sort of, you know, didn't keep pushing myself. And so, I feel like looking back now, I feel like I've made no improvement over the last year and a half.

So, has that been sort of a similar thing for you in English? I imagine you get to a certain level where unless you're really pushing yourself, like with probably bodybuilding too, right. If you just take it easy and do the bare minimum, you're not going to really- You'll maintain what you've got, but if you found that difficult, you know, what's your experience of it being like after coming to Australia?

Yeah. I had to put a lot of effort into it. A lot, a lot. Because, well, I was a teacher in Brazil, but I taught Brazilian students. Worst case scenario, we would all resort to Portuguese to help each other in classroom. ...Living in an English-speaking country, and...

Sorry, it broke up. What did you say? I think you said "here", and then it broke up.

Yeah. So, as I was saying, I was living in an English-speaking country, and then I saw myself in a situation in which I could not resort to Portuguese when I didn't know how to say something or how to explain something like, for example, when I had to, you know, take my car to the mechanic for the first time. I was like, what? I can't speak about it in Portuguese, like, let alone in English.

The training wheels are off.

I had to look things up a bunch of times before talking to the plumber. Or let's say, I don't know, going to, I don't know, somewhere to sort out like a financial problem with the bank. Like, seriously, lots of situations we wouldn't go through if we, you know, just lived in our own country and trying to improve our English.

It wouldn't be the same, as much as you would try to do. As much as you try to do, you wouldn't reach the same level because it's the need that you have. Yeah.

Well, these are my blind spots right now, right. I have absolutely zero idea of how to get my car repaired in Portuguese or how to open a bank account or how to get public transport because it's not something that I've ever had to do in Portuguese. And if I tried to do it in Portuguese, in Australia, it would be an abject failure.

It wouldn't be a failure, but people would help you. You know, you wouldn't find your way out of the situation by yourself.

I think they'd be confused. Why is this guy speaking Portuguese to me in Melbourne? I'm just a bus driver.

So, what I had to do. And look, I still see myself doing it, you know, sometimes, depending on the situation. I try to foresee, you know, what I'll have to go through, what I will have to say, and I look things up in advance, like I prepare for a situation.

So, I know the plumber is coming and I have like a clogged sink or something. I look things up, I read about it, I watch videos and I'm like, okay, so this is the vocabulary I need. So, when the plumber comes in, I'm like, oh, this is what's happened.

And he's like, I have no idea what you're saying. Is she speaking to me in Portuguese?

And there were times that I learnt a lot of new words with tradies, like with people who came out, you know, to inspect my house or, you know, like it was like, oh, I didn't know. I didn't know that that thing was called skirtboard or, you know, things like that. Yeah. So, I had to put a lot of effort into improving my English, and I would say that my vocabulary especially was what improved the most.

Because grammar, I feel like grammar is kind of limited. There's a number of structures that you, you know, there's just, you know, a certain number of structures that you learn, and you can use either in writing or in speaking, and you can easily get by with those structures.

But vocabulary, it seems that- It seems to me that it's never enough. Never, never, never... When it comes to vocabulary, I'm always like, I always second guess myself. I'm like, I Googled, I should know that. I-

Well, and once you get an option for everything, you want two options, you want three options, right. Because again, you want more paint, you want more colours to be able to use so that you don't sound like someone who just uses, "however", all the time, right. And I even have that in English, where I'm reading and I'll come across words and I'll be like, ooh, that's going in the bank.

I'm going to whip that one out at some point, you know? Ooh, ostensibly, like, ooh. I love to when you find those sorts of words and you're like, I can't even define that, but I know how he used it in this exact situation. And then when you go to use it, everyone kind of looks at each other and they're like, yes. And you're like, no one understands what this means.

Too advanced.

Yeah, exa- Well, that's funny. And it even happens with my wife at the moment. Like, I'm reading Game of Thrones in Portuguese, and I'm like... ...Yeah, well, I'm trying to get through it because I want to just- It's an enthralling story, I already know the story so I can follow along, and I have a basic idea of the characters and what happens.

So, that helps with just, I guess, what would you say, intuiting the vocab that comes up a lot of the time. But half the time she's like, what the fuck are you talking about? Like, I pull these words out, I think I was saying, (speaks portuguese).

...Conversation with her?

Yeah, well, I was trying to say, so now I know three words for "horse".

...Conversation like, I'm OK with that theory.

Yeah. Well, I keep saying, I have no reference, but Game of Thrones. And she'd be like, that is so out of like, you would never hear that. I think one of them was like- Oh, what was it? It was like, (speaks Portuguese) or something like, hold your tongue. And she's like, no one says that. No one. And I'm like, look, I understand that, but this is how I learn, right. Like, this is part of learning it.

You need to absorb as much vocab as possible, and then I'm effectively going to try it on you, and I'm going to gauge your reaction. And if you have no idea what I'm saying, I'm going to be like, okay, that one isn't going into the use everyday bank.

Oh, okay.

That's going into the recognised bank, you know, and so...

Yeah, yeah, active and passive.

Exactly. And that's the thing that I'm playing with at the moment. Like, I learnt another word. What was it? I think it was like, (speaks Portuguese) recently, which means mutt or mongrel, at least according to the internet. And Kel was like, I have never ever seen that word, like no one would ever say that.

And I'm like, I don't care. I still want to be able to recognise it when I'm reading, like, I'm not going to go out there and start using it. But I'm glad that I can sort of see it and be like, boom, okay, I know that. Like when I was watching Game of Thrones in English, they say a lot of things that you would never say, and yet you want to be able to understand it, right, so.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, that's another thing. Okay, two things from what you said. Number one, it depends on who you were talking about. I've already used the word "hussy".

Really, you used it?

Yeah.

Oh, that's it. And that's the problem. I say this to Kel all the time, I'm like, I don't trust your just personal, you know, you're not a good representation necessarily of all, Portuguese. Okay, so I'm just going to also put that into context.

Yeah, but that's one thing.

Yeah.

So, it is who you talk to...

Yeah.

...The context, the situation, what you were talking about. And then the last thing was, you need to be able to understand words, so you don't learn words. I tell that to my students. You don't learn words just because you intend to use them, you know, like you can't possibly use all of the words you know, I don't use all of the words I know in Portuguese.

Well, you probably only use like a very, very tiny percentage, right, of any- The active vocab tends to always be significantly smaller than your passive.

But when I read the news, I read a lot of- I see a lot of words that I don't use in my daily life.

Yeah.

And I'm able to recognise it, and recognise them, and I understand what I'm reading. That's it. And now again, when it comes to sitting exams, because that's what I'm- That's a really big part of what I do for a living, I prepare students, for exams. I tell them they have huge difficulty, some of them, huge difficulties with reading, for example, and vocabulary is the problem.

Yeah.

Because especially when it comes to IELTS, it's all about finding paraphrases, synonyms, similar words. It's vocabulary. It's got a lot to do with vocabulary. So, we don't just learn vocabulary in order to use it, you know, when we speak, but we want to watch a film, read a book, I don't know, and, yeah, understanding people speaking.

And whoever they are and also regardless of the topic of the conversation, we want to be able to understand and be able to follow along. Even if we're not able to interact much, we still can keep up with what's going on.

Well, that's an interesting point, because you wouldn't imagine someone saying, you know, why on earth are you listening to American English? You're in Australia. You'd be like, yeah, but I want to understand it. I'm not going to necessarily speak with an American accent, but I still want to be able to understand it. I was having this- I did a video recently teaching some American English.

I reacted to this really funny video, this two-minute skit and broke it down, and it made me realise how much English he is using that I don't even think about. And I understand 100%, but that I would never say, I would never use the kind of really specific African American vernacular English like phrases that he uses like, you know, we were going to bust his arse, you know, that sort of stuff.

Or like, there was a, like he was touching all over my titties, you know, he was saying all these things and I'm like, it's so funny that I 100% understand exactly what he's saying, but I would never use that in my day-to-day language. And if I did, people would be like, what the hell is wrong with this guy?

So, it is really funny how much you do have to work on being able to understand so much more than you were ever actually going to be able to use. And I think, do you think- Well, do you think a lot of students forget that and they focus way too much on production and neglect a lot of, you know, having to absorb content?

Yeah, 100%. I think they pressure themselves to speak perfect English. That's their aim. Oh, and, oh my god, this is something I talk to them about so much. I have a lot of advanced students who struggle with confidence, and I ask them, why do they come to me? And they tell me, my English is not good enough.

I'm so frustrated. I always get disappointed when I know I have a job interview and I, you know, I fail and, you know, I'm like- Okay, first, tell me one thing, what's your idea of good English? Yes, I want to speak English like a native speaker.

Which one? Plenty of them don't speak good English. Yeah, yeah. Exactly, exactly. Let's- Come on. Let's get it- We have to align expectations first, first of all. Because they usually set unrealistic goals for themselves. And I have to, you know, I have to tell them, look, I'm going to be hard on you, I'm sorry, but that's not achievable. I mean, I'm not going to say, oh, it's impossible to speak like a native speaker.

Like it depends on what speaking like a native speaker is like for you. Like, what's your idea? Do you really think, for example, that I have all the words I need to, you know, express my ideas? You know, I fake it a lot. You know, I just have tools to, you know, get, you know, get out of a situation in which I can't say something using other words. But like, I wish, I wish I had, you know, I knew all of the words.

Yeah. Milene, can you tell me what you think of the phylogenetic origins of Australian rodents? And you'd just be like...

What the...?

Yeah, exactly. You'd be like, what the fuck are you smoking? Can I just tap out? Can I? I need to go to the toilet. I'll be back.

Yeah, so it's that that they don't understand. Like, you don't need all the words in the world, you know, to communicate well. Sometimes you may need, you know, to be a little bit less shy, you know, and put yourself out there and things will flow.

Well, that's an interesting point to sort of stick on, though, too, right. Confidence has a lot to do with showing how good your English actually is. I would imagine that if you lack confidence and you don't work on that, no matter how good your English is, you're never necessarily going to be able to show all that you are capable of or have good conver-

Like, there are plenty of native quote unquote "native speakers" who I remember when I was on the dating scene and if they were lacking confidence or, you know, just really nervous, you would have horrible conversations with these people. Because of the confidence, and because of the behaviour, not because necessarily they didn't speak English, or they had trouble speaking English.

And vice versa there would be people I would meet when I was going to language meetups that would have, you know, quote unquote "less than ideal, less than perfect English". But you would get along with the house on- Like a house on fire because they would be- They would have had a few drinks and they're just no longer inhibited by being nervous or anything like that.

And they can communicate, and you have a great time with them. So, a lot of the time you think the problem is more focussing on your confidence and building that up, as opposed to worrying about never making a single pronunciation or grammatical error when speaking English.

Yeah, yeah, that's the whole point. Yeah. So, just going back to the point where we started. So, they forget that they need to understand more than they actually...

Produce.

...Produce, thank you very much. I lost my train of thought.

That wasn't because she didn't know the word guys. That was the brain fart, like all of us.

Because, you know, they- That's what will actually help them keep up a conversation. You know, they will find a way to express their ideas in a different way if they lack the words they need. But as long as they are- They can understand what's going on and, you know, they really want to communicate.

Like, the main objective of the conversation is to find a solution to something, so stop focussing on the language, you know, focus on the objective of the conversation. And things will flow, things will come. But you can't stop yourself. You can't avoid taking part in conversations, you know, just because you lack confidence.

Well, and it's not going to help. Right. That's not the answer to building confidence.

You'll never become confident if you, you know, don't just throw yourself into it.

So, you sort of have to lean into discomfort, right. As long as your kind of just leaning forward towards discomfort, you can obviously decide on how far you want to lean into it. But if you're leaning backwards and away from it, you're never going to really conquer those issues.

Yeah, that's what we mentioned about going through the pain and being able to bear it. It will be uncomfortable. You're going to blush. You're going to start sweating. I am sweating, my armpits are sweating. Like, you guys, you can't see it. I- Like it is. You have to go through pain and discomfort sometimes, but that's what's going to make your skin thicker.

Awesome. Well, I know I've kept you for about 50 minutes, but finishing up here, I will have a lot of people... Sorry?

It didn't feel like.

I know. That's it, it goes passed. It goes passed.

Yeah.

But there'll be a lot of people who are, you know, thinking, my English is really good. But I still want more. I'm still thirsty to improve. But it's gotten to that point where, you know, I am highly advanced, I have a career in Australia, I have a family here.

If it were you and tomorrow, you know, you had all the time in the world to keep working on your English, despite how good it already is. What would be the kind of advice or plan that you would have, the advice to yourself or the plan that you would make as an advanced, a really, really advanced English speaker to continually improve at the level, you know, that you're currently at?

I bet a little bit of what I'd do, and I may sound repetitive because I mentioned it before. So, if you need English the most at work, so you try to think about, what's going to happen tomorrow at work? And to plan for that you study, you look up the words you need, or you read something about something you want to talk to with your co-workers. I used to do that. I'll tell you a secret.

...Secret now. Nobody knows it, but, yeah, that's what I used to do. So, every Monday or every, you know, Sunday evening, I would kind of prepare a little speech or like I would rehearse a conversation that I would have with my co-workers at work. Co-workers at work that was redundant, anyway.

Well, like as opposed to your co-workers at the gym or...? Gotcha.

Anyway. Because I knew they were going to ask me about how my weekend was.

Yeah.

What I had done, and everything. And if I had done something different, that was at the beginning, that was when I started working at Langports. And, you know, I was still not 100% confident, you know, being a teacher in Australia, speaking to Australians on a daily basis, you know, like it was all new to me. And, yeah, that's what I do every evening or Monday morning on the way to work.

Okay, so I'll tell them that I did this, this and that. And how did I feel? Like I was constantly rehearsing, and I am still constantly rehearsing, you know, every day. I- Yeah, it's an ongoing process, it's a lifelong process. It doesn't have an end, you know. Yeah, that's what I can tell. So, yeah. I don't know if that helps, but that helped me, you know, I'm always planning what's next.

Okay, so if I see my neighbour, yeah, there was a, I don't know, there was a problem in the building, and we all were affected by that problem. If I talk to my neighbour about that problem, what am I going to say? Which words, which words may I need?

Yeah.

It's yeah, it's basically- It's like when you get ready to deliver a presentation at school or at work, you prepare in advance, and that is stunning...

Only if you want to pass. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah...

Well, I think that's the point though, right. It's the- You need to focus on where your gaps are, because I think when you first start learning a language, everything is gaps. You know, you're- It's like, you're Indiana Jones. You know that path that he goes across?

He throw sand across to try and get to the other side of the cabin and he can- Like it's invisible and he throws sand. When you first begin learning a language, it's like you're standing on like a little platform and everything around you is invisible.

And you have to- You slowly fill it in, and you get to see it, and there's fewer and fewer, you know, blank parts or gaps. But then later, you kind of have all of these areas that are covered. But then there are holes everywhere and you've got to spend a lot of time then just looking for the holes that you have and trying to fill them in.

Yeah. Yep, yep. Exactly.

Awesome, Milene. Well, thank you so much for coming on. How can people find out more about what you do and obviously who you are? So, if people want to follow you on social media or they want private lessons from you. Yeah, give us the plugs.

My teacher Instagram is @Milene.teacher and my fitness Instagram is @Milene.fitness. I'm not very active lately, you know, I have been very busy, as I mentioned at the beginning of the conversation, studying and teaching and trying to survive the lockdown.

Yeah. Don't forget to take it easy at times and give yourself a little bit of your own space and time, right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've been trying to do that, too. Look, but I do check my social media. I haven't been posting much, but I do check that every day. So, if people want to contact me for classes, do so through Instagram. And yeah, that's it.

I know you help with IELTS. Do you also help with PTE?

Not much. I don't have many students. It's just because they don't have as many students looking for PTE preparation as they have IELTS.

Yep.

But I do as well.

Awesome. Yeah, I get that question all the time. Can you help me with PTE? Can you help me with IELTS? And I'm like, look, I create English content, but I am not a, you know, I have no credentials with preparing people. So, you guys harass Milene if you need help with the IELTS or the PTE, please.

Please, thank you.

Anyway, thank you so much for coming on, mate. And I'm looking forward to round three in the future, hopefully not another 400 episodes.

Thank you so much for the invitation and it's always a pleasure to talk to you. You're super cool. I love your content. I also follow you on social media. I watch your videos and I learn a lot from your YouTube.

Oh, Milene you're too kind, you're too kind. Well, thank you very much. See you, guys.

Thank you. Bye.