Transcript of AE 1104 - Interview: The Cost of Having Children & Losing Friends as You Get Older with Kyrin Down

G'day, you mob. Pete here. Welcome to part two of my little mini-series with Kyrin Down from the Mere Mortals podcast. In today's episode, number two, we chat about our plans for travelling to Brazil. So, my plans in terms of our plans, my wife and my family.

We talk about children and juggling multiple children and what that's like, the cost of having children in past eras, so pre-industrial Europe, you know, how difficult it was to have kids and that quite often many of them would die. And then even indigenous groups around the world and the kind of investment having a child meant for these groups living off the land.

We talk about the woman who had the most children ever, the number was 69 and then the cost of big families. We talk about sibling relationships, you know, were you best friends with your siblings or worst enemies? How friendships change as you get older, you know, and mourning the loss of your younger social life with friends and catching up all the time at the drop of a hat.

How that changes the older you get. And then lastly, friends who get into relationships with other people and then suddenly drop off the radar, you know, and or it becomes if you want to see one of them, you have to see both of them. So, anyway, let's get into today's episode.

Do you have any plans to travel? What are your thoughts on with the COVID situation and trying to get to Brazil? Because I know you- I imagine you'd love to get there.

Yeah. I'm not too fazed. I'd like to go; I would like to have the money to go. I'm more worried, I guess, about the price of trying to get there at the moment. Because I don't know what flights are, I assume they're just fuck off expensive, ridiculous, right? Because- I mean, I'd have to look into it. But yeah, my wife definitely wants to go. I don't think she's seen her family in 6 years, so it's been quite a while.

We were planning to go back after, yeah, 4 years, so it would have been 2019, but for obvious reasons didn't make it back.

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Yeah, it's- Yeah. So, many people I know, like, have made serious, serious life decisions of, you know, like backpackers and people who are sort of just flying into Austral- I know- I seem to just congregate around sort of backpacker type people.

Maybe it's like the callisthenic park, I think I meet a lot of them there. And so many of them were like, oh yeah, I arrived 3 days after COVID happened, like 3 day- Or like three days before...

The borders closed. Yeah.

...And then it was like, I should probably stay here because it's maybe a bit better than being in France, or...

Now I'm married with 3 children and have a full-time job in Australia.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so quite a few people have had some serious life changes or like, you know, decisions as well related to, should I stay, should I go? Yeah.

Well, we smashed out our second child in 2020 because we couldn't get back to Brazil. And so, we were like, we had that ultimatum of if we were going to go back to Brazil, we were going to wait a bit longer because I didn't really want to travel whilst Kel was pregnant or with a very, very young baby. But then COVID happened and I'm like, alright, so this is probably going to be a year or two of dicking around before we can get back to Brazil.

So, we might as well. We were planning on having a second one, we might as well just smash it out now. But good God has that had some ups and downs with it, just how difficult it is to have 2 children, and to- Especially our second one that seems just like endlessly neurotic and needy and just on you constantly. Like the- Her beautiful smile kind of redeems her a lot of the time.

But sometimes you're just like, I can see how indigenous people and hunter collectors just left babies. They were just like; this is too hard. Like, I always have that sort of thought now with children, I'm like, fuck me how much we're battling with this in the 21st century. I can't imagine, let alone a hundred years ago. What was it like for indigenous people anywhere in the world having to deal with a baby that had been born?

You know, it would be such a fucking huge investment, and it would be something that would in- Affect. I almost said, infect. Affect the entire group, right? Like this is suddenly something that's waking everyone up, that is everyone's responsibility that if we don't take care of this child, we won't have another member in the group to help take care of the group, so we have to take care of the baby.

But imagine, too, having twins. You would just be like, fucking come on. Like, I have a small tribe of 10 people in the Australian outback, and I happen to be pregnant with twins.

Have you seen that lady who's had the most babies on record?

I think she had 29, right, or something crazy.

Yeah, I'll bring it up right now...

I'm going to Google as well.

...The other day.

Holy shit, 27 births.

And yeah, and it's just like, she was basically pregnant for so like 30 to 40 years straight.

Holy crap. Wait, what? So, Valentina Vassilyev and her husband, Feodor Vassilyev, are alleged to have- To hold the record for the most children a couple has produced. She gave birth to a total of 69 children, 16 pairs of twins, 7 pairs of triplets and 4 sets of quadruplets between 1725 and 1765. Fuck me. So, she had 69 children from 27 births.

How ridiculous is that? I think I may have lost him. He's back.

Apologies, man. That's my end. Yeah.

All good, yeah. So, I was saying, this woman apparently gave birth only or had 27 birthing sort of events but had 69 children.

Yeah, yeah.

So, holy shit. In the year 1725 to 1765 or something, like over a 40-year period and in the 1700s, there's no hospital, there's no- This is like you do it on the farm.

Yeah. And you know what the best bit of this? This dude, I think, had 4 wives as well. So, he didn't have 69 children, he had a couple more than that.

I wonder how many actually survived, because surely...

They would have to- They would have had to have- Yeah, a lot of them...

Especially with that many twins, right? Like if you've got quadruplets or triplets, right, there's going to be some serious issues with the potential needs that they're going to have. I can't believe she gave birth to quadruplets, 4 sets of quadruplets. She just- And naturally gave birth to them. Like...

Yeah, like what's- This is one where it's like you start to question Wikipedia. It's like, yeah, you know, was there something else going on there? You know, was there a bunch of other peasants in the land who just had kids they didn't want, and so were sort of like, here you go, you know, here's some extra kids and...

Holy crap. Have a look at this. This came up underneath. The world's most fertile woman had 44 kids by 36.

Wow.

She's raising them alone. So, Miriam Nabatanzi from Uganda has a rare medical condition and had 25 children by the time she was 23. Holy crap, dude. Holy shit.

That's where it starts to like, get tinted with sadness because, you know, she would have been having kids when she was 14 or 15...

12.

...Like that.

She got married at 12 to her 40-year-old husband.

Yeah.

Jesus.

That leaves a bit of a bad taste in the mouth. I just love how the Guinness World Records, it's the most prolific mother ever. That's the record.

Have you seen the documentary of the woman in Britain? That's like, I think it's like 21 and counting. There's a whole bunch of them, there's like 19 and counting, 20 and counting, 21 and counting.

I've heard of them. I've never personally bothered to investigate into it.

That makes me wonder if I should bother talking about it. But yeah, it blew me away. When we were having our first, we were watching all these doco's and especially the one every minute, which is really interesting because it's like following the stories of people who are pregnant, having their first child, and you get to see them go from start to finish and hear a bit about their back story. It's from Britain.

It's really interesting. So, if you guys are thinking of, you know, you listeners having children, check that out, you'll learn a lot of vocab and you get to see all the births and everything. What can go wrong, what goes right. But there was one woman we found in this series of doco's who was just- I think it's called British- Britain's biggest family, and they have all these different doco's because they followed them multiple times.

But she started having children, I think, in her teens and had- I think she, at least according to her, had her last at 40-41, and she was having one a year. And I think- I don't think she had any twins. It was just every single year she was pregnant. She had like one or two miscarriages throughout that period, but it effectively had one child for every year.

So, she had like one that was 23, 22, 21, 20, 19... And they were all living in the same house except for like the eldest two of them. And you're just like, good God. And it's so funny because they interview the children and the children are like, you know, I think they'd be like, are you going to have a big family?

And they'd be like, get fucked. No way, this is never happening. And then the oldest one had one child and was like, I'm done. And then in the next doco, she's like, yeah, the second is on the way.

And they were like...

Yeah.

So.

I'm wondering if it's like psychologically addicting for her or I mean, physically addicting, perhaps to like...

It's psychological, I think it's that idea of constantly wanting to be a mum to, I would imagine, newborns. She was just addicted- I think she says that in the doco where she's just like, I'm just addicted to having babies. I like having children in the house, and I think every time one goes to school, she feels bad because she's like, oh my god, now I've only got 4 at home.

No...

My wife...

...Collectables.

Yeah. Well, my wife would be like, that is my worst nightmare would be to have 3 children, let alone 20-something. But yeah, it is weird, right? Because you kind of- You get into that area of, what gives people the right to have children? Like, you know, to think about that sort of thing, right?

Like morally, ethically, legally, you know, there are all these sorts of interesting questions around, should you have the right to just have as many children as you want to have, irrespective of, say, your circumstances?

You know, if you're a single parent and you don't have a job, should you be allowed to just have 15 children that become effectively the responsibility of other people or the government, right? It becomes one of those things where you're like, Jesus, 20-something children.

And not even that, the thing that I think about when watching this is I'm like, every single time you have another child, you're diluting the quality of the relationship that you have with your current brood of children, right?

Like, I think about Noah and Joana, my two children, and I'm like, yeah, I'd love to have a third child. But that means that each of these children are then going to get a third of my attention and love and time, which isn't the end of the world, but it's- If you take that out to 21 children or 69, in the case of this other woman, assuming they all lived, what kind of relationship are you going to have?

You're not even going to remember their names, you know. This would be like having three classes at school and trying to remember the names of all the children.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just dealing with the pure numbers of that...

I can't imagine.

...I think I was saying of the 69, 67 survived infancy for her. So, she probably had a- She probably had that problem...

She must have had a lot of help.

It was like, why writing was invented, it was just this one lady who was like, God damn it. I can't remember all these names; I'm going to write them down.

Well, I think that's one of the most difficult parts of our history, too, right? Where women were effectively just brood mares, they were treated as like another animal on the farm.

It's like, your job is to have more children, and as the husband, I'll decide when you stop. You know, and your just like, fuck me. I can't imagine being in a situation like that where you had, as the woman, had no choice over something so significantly physical happening to your body.

And everyth- Like even when Kel was giving birth twice, I was like, her life's on the line. Like she could die, potentially, even with all the medical treatment we have today, something could go wrong, she could bleed out, she could die, you know?

And I can't imagine back in the day, you know, even 100 years ago where you effectively had, you know, zero help from hospitals or medical interventions or education around it through the internet. And you had to just keep smashing out children for as long as your husband or family or society expected you to, right.

Like, I think my parents have done quite a lot of family history and we have a lot of ancestors that had 10 children, and then you'll see the little X's and your like, yeah, this one died at 2, that one died at 5, that one died at 10.

And imagine dealing with that trauma as well of we're going to have a big family because a whole bunch of them are going to cark it, you know, before they get to adulthood, probably a third of them will die. So, don't get too attached to Billy, you know, because he's got about 2/3 of a chance of surviving to become an actual man. So, I'll learn your name at 15, mate.

Yeah, that's wild. That's just how people had to have lived. Even, you know, even just 150 years ago, it was a completely different time.

I know.

I was going to ask you, one of the things that was sort of, I guess, unique between me and my brother was our age difference was about 6 years, it was like 5 and 3/4 or something. And so, I was chatting with my dad the other night and my brother and we were like, yeah, we never really fought, like we were always really, you know, aside from like small niggling things, we were always, like, really, really tight, really good friends.

And dad was just saying, yeah, pretty much, that's probably due to the age difference. Like, I was always way bigger than him from the get-go. Like, there was no competition for friends, no competition for, you know, resources or things like that, if you want to put it that way.

So, he's 6 years younger than you?

Yeah, yeah. So, have you noticed any, I don't know, like sibling rivalry between Noah and Jo?

Yeah, it's started to come out. I think Noah is- I don't know. It's hard, though, because I would imagine, too, your personality, I don't know what your brother's like, but you're probably both pretty agreeable, nice and you know social.

Yeah.

And so, it is one of those tough things, like my sister and I hated each other from a very young age until probably about 5 or 10 years ago when we were, you know, both adults having our own families and just got over it. And well, we sort of had a heart to heart and just got it past us. But we were 21 months different and hated each other, both probably because of our personalities.

My sister is very independent and I'm sort of a little, I don't know, niggly and annoying, at least as a child. Probably still am to some extent. But my dad and his sister were about the same difference, maybe even less than that. They may have been only a year different, and they were as thick as thieves, you know, the best of friends...

Yeah, okay.

So, I don't know what's going to happen with my kids, to be honest. Noah's at that stage of the terrible twos where he's just always fucking crying and having tantrums about the smallest things. And you're just like, mate, I'm going to leave you in the forest. Like, I'm going to make sure the birds eat the crumbs, and you find the witch's gingerbread house and you're on your own.

A gentle reminder every now and then of this could happen.

No, no, but he's at that stage of just everything is mine, and if you don't do what I want you to do, I'm going to have a tantrum. And whether you're Pete, you know, my dad, my mum, or whether you're Joana, and so Joana will want to play with him, or just like, she's at that stage now, what, she's ten months old, where she just wants to grab things and she wants to do what he wants to do.

So, she's really into it. And this reminds me a lot of my relationship with my sister and is probably what I imagine was happening at the time for us that sort of started leading me to get irritated with her. Because she just from memory wanted to be around all the time but would- Had no understanding of what was mine and what I wanted to do and was just taking things and just sitting on top of me and irritating me.

And I think Joana is kind of at that stage where she doesn't mean to, but she's constantly wanting to be involved with whatever he's doing. And so, he'll be at that stage of putting together Duplo and trying to make these kind of elaborate, you know, little block things, train sets, and she'll come over and just be like, fucking bang, smash the thing down. And you'll be like... *shock* ...You know, what's going to happen?

No. And then the... *crying* ...You know, and you'd be like, oh, Joey. Oh Noah. Fuck me. Here we go again, another 10 minutes of, you know, inconsolable crying from Noah. It's like, mate, it's okay. She just wants to play. Yeah. So, I have no idea how it's going to go. It'll be interesting to watch. Hopefully, they end up good friends.

You know, I wouldn't want them to have the relationship I had with my sister when I was a kid because it was very- Just, yeah, taking on one another all the time, competing for attention, irritating one another. So, I hope they don't have that because it probably also is pretty stressful for the parents, you know, feel bad. Mum and dad listening to this, you know, I'm sorry.

Yeah. Like the helplessness of parents when it's just like, you can see what's going wrong here. And it's just, you can't do anything...

There is so many that, like just simple things, too, like he'll just lose it because he can't put two pieces of Duplo together. And you're like, mate, just take a fucking chill pill.

But it's like, and I remember, I think I've said this before on the podcast, the way that they cry when they have those tantrums, it's like someone has killed their wife in front of them. You know, like, I can't imagine- The only thing that you could probably do would be to kill my family member in front of me, to have me have that physical response of absolute...

Devastation.

Yeah. And to just lose it physically. I can't imagine, I can't remember the last time I was ever crying and was doing the... *crying* ...Where you can't even get a breath in, you know?

Yeah.

And he'll do that because an ad comes up on YouTube if he's watching a truck show or something and it suddenly stops and he'll just be like... *screams of distress* ...Like, good God, man. Like, just breathe. Breathe, Noah, breathe. You know? So, it is...

I think that's appropriate, man. I hate ads that much that I- I'm almost at that level.

Just rage quit. And dealing with the violence, too. It's starting to come out. I got that a lot from listening to Jordan Peterson, where he was like saying, I think 2- to 4-year-olds are the most violent demographic. And Noah at the moment would just get angry about something and want to slap you. He won't, you know, he doesn't realise, but he's- I guess he's just like full of frustration and, you know.

I don't know if it's hormones or just, you know, these sentiments where he's just like, wants to get the rage out. And so, he'll be pissed about something, and you walk past him and he'll slap your leg or something, and you'll be like, dude, like, no. Can't do that...

Yeah.

...Can't just hit someone because you're angry. You know, I want to all the time, but you have to refrain.

Yeah, man, yeah. Jeez. I think- It's funny you were saying about like the- What was the documentary called? One every minute or something like that?

That's the series that's all about childbirth. The doco about the woman, though, is like 21 and growing. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. But it's just, you know, it's such a life changing event for you and for anyone, I guess. I imagine there's some people it's like, oh, just had a kid, whatever. But it's like, so life changing for you. But then it's just everyone's doing it all the time, like everyone goes through it. Yeah. I find that really fascinating.

Well, it was interesting, we were sort of some of the first in our friendship group to start having kids, which was kind of a gift and a curse because you get to pave the way. And so, you get to be the kind of people who know, you know, what it's like. You've got- You've had the experience, so you can, you know. Yeah, you've got that, I did it first, and I'll help out all my friends' kind of situation happening.

But then at the same time, whilst it's happening, everyone just thinks you're overreacting. So, you'll just be like, you know, I- You know, I haven't slept in three months, and they'll be like, well, you know, you say that.

But like, really? You know, you've had little sleep, so it's probably been fine. You're like, mate, shut the fuck up. You do not know what you're talking about. And then they have kids and you're like, how's the sleep going, champ? So, you get a bit of that schadenfreude, right, enjoying other people's pain.

But it is interesting. It is one of these things, though, that is so hard because you kind of have this, you know, everyone has their preconceived ideas of what it's like to have kids. And I think too, you focus a lot on what's going to be good about it. Like, oh, fuck, can't wait to have a little tacker, little version of me running around, you know, at knee height.

And you just have no real understanding of what it's going to be like and how your life's actually going to change until it happens. And unfortunately, there's no way of kind of just testing it. You're like, let's just rent a kid for the week and see what happens, you know, get an idea of what it feels like. There's no way of doing that.

It's like, I remember when I was a kid down here at Easton Beach, which is a beach in Geelong, it's inside the bay. It's really calm. They've got like this, what would you say? Like a pier that's kind of a semicircle off the beach with cages underneath it so that no animals can get in. I think it's from like the 1800s where a woman had her arm bitten off by a shark there.

Oh, jeez.

Yeah, so they built this thing. But anyway, there's this kind of tower in the middle out to sea that you can jump off, and it's about 4 or 5 metres high. And I remember, as a kid climbing up there and being like, yeah, this is going to be easy. You get to the top and you're like, fuck that, there is no way I'm jumping off this thing.

And you don't have- Until you do it, you have no real understanding of what it's like, but you have to kind of take that jump. And there's no going back after you've done it.

And so, it felt like that with kids to some extent, where you've got this idea of jumping off the thing into the water is going to be so much fun, but you're at the top looking at it and you're like, this looks fucked. But you're seeing all the younger kids jumping off the top being like, woooo! And then...

Yeah, yeah.

...And then you do it for the first time and you're like, okay, now I know what it's like. It's fine. I understand it, until you do a belly flop, right? And you end up in hospital. But it sort of felt like that with kids to some extent, where you have these ideas of what it's going to be like and then life just has other plans. And there's- It's a mix of everything. It's good, but it's really hard at times as well.

Definitely, definitely. I was actually just- I went to a new place to do some handstands yesterday, and it was sort of like along the Brisbane River, there's just a little park there and there's a tiny little pier coming out.

And I saw all of these kids sort of conglomerate there. I was like, oh, what are they doing there? Like, there's nothing to do there. And then it's like literal lemmings, man.

They take their shirts off, they jump off into the water, they swim back, they come back and then they jump off again. Just watching this, there's probably 7 or 8 of them, and it was just a continual train of circles just going around and around. *Kid jumping in water* ...Swim back up...

I miss those days, right, where you could just play with your mates and dick around and there was no- You didn't have to worry at all about anything, right? It was like, I go home, I'll get food, I'll go to sleep, I'll play with my Gameboy or, you know, chill out with my mates tomorrow.

But today, you know, as an adult- It's like with having children, right, it's that you don't know what you had until you've lost it, sort of thing, of you don't appreciate what it was like not having children and how precious, you know, your own time is and that you had the ability to be like, hey, Kel. You know, my wife. Hey, Kel, let's get in the car and go for a cruise this weekend.

It's like, yeah, that's never happening again. Yeah, like, unless it's okay, where are we going? Where are the stops? Where's the petrol station? Okay, we can be in the car for this time...

Extremely detailed.

Exactly. The kid's naps are these times, so we have to- And you're just like, fuck it, let's just stay home. But I remember that as a kid, I miss those days of just being like going out in the street and everyone didn't have anything going on either. So, you wouldn't have this kind of like, oh, normally I'd hang out with Billy, but he's got to hang out with his kids and go to church or do all these other things.

And like go to, you know, go to his job, earn a living, see his grandparents. It would just be everyone's in the street again, and then the next day everyone's in the street again after school and you would just hang out and do, you know, dumb shit. But...

Yeah, 100%.

It's harder, it's almost like that part of your life dies. Because nowadays, especially with kids, even more so, as soon as all your friends end up with kids, it's so much harder to ever socialise and organise stuff, especially like one-on-one stuff with other adults.

Because either your kids are there or, you know, you've got to stay home with them, or their kids are there or they've got to stay home for them, then it becomes this exponentially difficult thing to organise the more people that you want to see as well. So, I remember after high school, we used to always, just every weekend we would catch up at our friends, someone's house.

It would just be like, you know, text message to everyone. We're all going to Jimmy's house. See you there. And 10 of us would be there, you know, 10 of the girls, 10 of the guys, whoever it was from school, and we would just all be drinking and hanging out around a fire. And it's just like, that's never happening again, you know, you can't just spontaneously message all your mates and be like, yeah, we're all going to Jimmy's house.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the spontaneity is definitely gone. I never celebrated my birthdays per say, but I've got my 30th coming up in four months? Two months' time.

And I was sort of just thinking like, man, this is probably one of the only like free passes that I get where it's like I throw the card down on the table and it's like, you have to come to this thing. You have to like, give me half of your Saturday or Sunday to be able to come to this. So, yeah. And like, man, my friend group is mostly single, like no one's married, no one has kids...

Yeah.

...Like at least the core friend group, so. And I'm wondering...

How old are you again, Kyrin?

So, I'm 29, I'm 29...

Oh, it's coming, mate. It's coming.

Yeah, it is. It is.

It's like a tsunami about to crash onto the coastline, onto the beach, mate.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And it's- It's kind of funny because I think I've sort of already, you know, somewhat sorted out or like filtered out some people just because they're already having, like they have the like, there was a sailor who's like, lost at sea. Good luck to you, good sir. See you later...

That's an interesting point, too, right? It's really difficult to see or to say goodbye to certain friends the older you get, too. Even especially the ones from high school that you've had those sort of formulaic years with, right, where you've developed with them. But like, there's a whole bunch that I had when they got married. Gone never saw them again, or you would see them, but it was always them and their wife.

It was never- Like, I have one at the moment, and it's almost a joke amongst the group of all of us who are friends with him. It's just it's no longer him, he doesn't exist anymore. It's him and his wife, they are now a single unit. And if you want to see one of them, they will both be there.

There is never- I don't think they ever do anything on their own, like it's they probably go to the toilet together. They- Like it's everything is done, and it is so set. It's almost like you end up mourning this person who used to exist where you could be like, oh yeah, we would go and just, you know, go to the races or go and do this, go and do that.

And then this it's weird that- I don't know what it's like from a woman's perspective on this sort of thing, when a guy comes into the picture for girlfriends. But with guys, it is interesting where some won't change at all, and I think you'll have others where it's like me, where I'm like, I've had to just, you know, adapt.

But I still find it very important to balance things and make time for myself and for my own friends, and I encourage my wife to do the same. I'm like, you need to have your own identity, it shouldn't be subsumed into what we are.

We can have our own identity at home and then, you know, and outside, but also, I want you to have your own friends, your own life outside of things where you can come home and then tell me new shit that I wasn't there to experience because I wasn't following you around like a shadow, right? So...

Yeah.

...It is really interesting, though, that you will have these people. I've had a few of them where once they're married or once they're in a relationship, that's long term, they just completely disappear. Or it becomes a contingent thing of we can hang out, but it's always a wife comes with thing. So, any bloke things that you do, she's not- If she doesn't want to come, it's not happening.

And so, it is weird. It's almost like she gets like a little purse, and he puts his testicles in there and she closes it and she is just like, I am the keeper. You know?

Yeah. Yeah, I've got a couple of friends like that. And then there's also the ones where you can see that's sort of what the girlfriend or wife wants to do, but he'll still just be like, nah, I'm going out. Like...

Exactly. And that's what you have to- I think, try and encourage them to be that sort of thing, obviously within a respectful kind of framework, right? You gotta be- You got to work together with your partner, you shouldn't be at odds. But at the same time, it's unhealthy, I think, for you to just never have your own life ever again.

Even if it's like once a month, we were trying to organise just going out once a month with all the guys to get a parmi and a beer or something. And again, it was like, I remember chatting to him in the group and being like, hey, do you want to come? Like, (tag) Are you going to come?

And he sent a photo beneath that was just like, my garden's doing really well, guys. Have you checked it out lately? And you're like, mate. Like, what? You just totally blew me off. Like, everyone just saw that you just totally ignored the question.

Well, yeah, I- Yeah, I had like- Last night just had a friend around who came up from Canberra, and it was just sort of like, hey, come over. Hey, let's- We'll go out and grab a drink or something.

That's pretty spontaneous from Canberra.

Yeah. Well, yeah, he's- I guess, like he sort of had been stuck there for a while, and he like, his family, friend group, most of us are all from Brisbane. So, when he comes up, it's sort of like he'll come up with his girlfriend for, you know, she'll be here for 6 days, and he'll be here for like 14 days. And so, he's just got tons of time...

Jeez, that's a 12-hour drive.

Yeah, no. They flew up...

Okay. I was going to say.

That's, yeah. Australia is too big, man. Too big for crap like that, unless you really love driving, which is a- I don't know. That's certainly not me. I've done the Mackay to Brisbane drive 4 times, I think, and half the time was enough.

Man, I've done Melbourne to Bundaberg, and that was...

Oh, jeez.

...That was three days, but it was good fun. But yeah, it becomes one of those- Especially with kids now, it's just like, yeah. But then you've got to deal with the whole renting a car and having to deal with that on the other end, so that's, yeah, it's a tough one.

Definitely.