Transcript of AE 1116 - Interview: Why Wasn't Einstein an Aboriginal Australian with Kyrin Down

G'day, you mob. Pete here, this is the last instalment of my little series with Kyrin Down from the Mere Mortals podcast. Go and check out his podcast. Today we talk about Guns, Germs and Steel, a book by Jared Diamond that looks at why certain cultures around the world developed what they did when they did, and others didn't.

We talk about why different countries and cultures are so different across the globe, despite us all being the same species, Homo sapiens. Why didn't other groups of people invent things like writing or domesticate animals or create economies and innovate like what happened in Europe and Asia over the last few thousand years? Where would we be technologically if it hadn't been for the big wars of the past?

You know, if we hadn't got things like the jet engine, atomic bombs and certain medical procedures where would we be today? If Einstein and Newton hadn't been born would someone else have come up with their theories of relativity and gravity? How are we going to look back at COVID?

Which countries did well or poorly in their dealing with the pandemic? You know, what's hindsight going to give us? And lastly, crazy inventions of the past made by geniuses' way ahead of their time, things like the Jaquet-Droz automata and the Antikythera mechanism. So, without any further ado, guys, let's get into today's episode.

...The thing, there's the "Guns, Germs and Steel", which is Jared Diamond's book, where he talks about- He argues more historically it was more of the land. So, I think he was trying to say it's not, it's not the- It's people- People everywhere are roughly the same and it's the- It was more decided on landscape and on, you know, things like germs, and so like the Americans would come and it would just wipe out the native Indians in America.

And that's why they never sort of formed, you know, societies and stuff, like they just would get wiped out. But then there's other ones, other arguments where you could say it's like racial differences, just temperament, you know.

And this is where it gets into like dangerous territory because it's like, you know, what are the IQ differences between different races? What are the, you know, like temperament in terms of aggressiveness between different races? That's where it's like you get in trouble for talking about those things.

Well, I think the biggest issue is that a lot of these places didn't have domesticatable animals that say Europe did, right. So, you know, they ended up with the sheep, the cow, with the goat, with the chicken, with all these, you know, things partly throughout south- Through Asia as well. But that Eurasian continent had all these animals that by chance ended up being able to be turned into farmable animals.

And then these crops, like grass and, you know, that turned into wheat, the grasses that turned into wheat and everything that were bred. It's almost like just this geographical chance that they ended up like- I always wonder that with the indigenous people in Australia, I'm like, you guys were here for 60,000 years and you couldn't create a bow and arrow, you know, like...

Yeah, yeah.

...Over that time, and it's the wrong way of looking at it. The thing is that they didn't need to, there was no... In order for them to reproduce and have more children, all they had to do, the food and everything was around them and they found a way of doing that, you know, with the skills and the intelligence that they had. And there was no other push.

But there was also no- You couldn't domesticate a kangaroo, you know, or some of the other large animals that were here prior to the last Ice Age, the huge wombats and everything and the massive kangaroos. They just weren't- I don't know how you would ever be able to domesticate an animal that hops so that it can pull something, right. You need big, sturdy animals that can...

Yeah. You seen videos of just kangaroos from the like, a car, it's like footage from a car and its sort of panning watching these kang- Like a herd of kangaroos going, and they're just clearing these fences...

Yeah.

...You know, it's like- It'll be like a metre and a half high fence, and they'd clear it by an extra half a metre...

Yeah, exactly. Yeah... (both talking)

...Keeping those things.

Yeah, controlling them and then also their build and whether or not they could be used to pull something or, you know, did they have any fur on them that you could shear off? Could be then used for- You could just take the skin off, right, and use that. But I don't know.

It is really interesting when you're like, fuck. They had, you know, 40,000 to 60,000 years and they just didn't innovate at all, really, past what they probably had when they got here. You know, maybe the didgeridoo and a few of these other sort of more unique tools that they ended up having and developing here that are unique to Australia, but.

And it is one of those things where you're like, far out. It's almost lucky.

You wonder if the period that we had about 12,000 years ago when all of these domestication's started happening in Europe was just such a lucky thing, you know, to have happened where we ended up with effectively farmers around that crescent, the fertile crescent that started producing different crops and then by chance ended up with these native animals that you could just build effectively a rock circle around them and they couldn't get out.

So, you can have them as a constant store of food and then as a result of having those crops and animals, you ended up having goods to trade, which then develops language being written down, right, a written language that people could use that then it just ends up exploding and you end up with all kinds of innovations.

And the fact that you can remember things by writing them down after that, right, you can pass on knowledge across generations without actually having to meet anyone and speak words to them with such a huge game changer that, you know, it just exploded from there.

But yeah, it blows my mind that it didn't happen anywhere else because I think from what I understand about, you know, humans all over the world, there's more difference within groups than there is really between any of them.

So, any racial group or, you know, ethnic group around the world could have done exactly what effectively Westerners and Asians did in Eurasia, but they just didn't have the tools around them to to do it, and they didn't bother. Right, so.

Do you subscribe much to the great men of history argument or great figures of history? So, this is, you know, would we have discovered the, you know, scientific method if- Or would we have discovered gravity if someone like Isaac Newton didn't come along? Would we still be...?

Yeah. I think we still would. I think it would be that kind of thing, it's going to happen sooner or later. And this is- When you go bigger than this it would be so interesting to have a look at other alien cultures across the universe and compare them to that kind of bending of the curve when things started to really pick up in terms of developing technologies and working out these sorts of problems.

It would be such an interesting scientific study to be able to do across different races that are effectively independent replications of one another, right or replications that are independent- What would you say? Examples of that thing happening.

And so, yeah, it'd be so interesting to see, does this- Do they need to work out gravity before they work out this thing? You know, and the theory of evolution, does that come later or beforehand? What's the sort of- Is there a set sequence of discoveries that happens?

It always happens when I'm playing a game called Civilisation six and they have like this, you have a set sort of series of things that you have to develop in order to get other things, right.

You know, you have to work out gravity before you can build a bow and arrow or whatever- I mean, not a bow and arrow, I'm thinking of cannons and all these other things, right. Like you have to get certain knowledge and then you can build certain technology.

And it would be really interesting to know more about what kind of sequence does that happen in across different intelligent life forms that end up being able to, I don't know, you know, develop electricity and civilisations like we have, whether or not they can travel through space. Is there a set sequence they have to follow? Or is it arbitrary?

You know, do they even need to understand what evolution is to be able to develop something like penicillin to fight viruses and or bacteria that evolve? Or can they just stumble across it and then just, you know, believe that it's God doing it and then still have the same result.

So, it'd be really interesting to be able to say that kind of stuff. But I don't know. I don't think it's the- You would have these brilliant minds throughout history that I imagine made a big difference.

But I think if Charles Darwin didn't publish his theory of evolution, his sort of impetus for doing that was the fact that someone else had discovered it, right? Wallace had gone through Southeast Asia and effectively found the same things, noticed these patterns, and that's why we have Wallace's line.

He's like, why the fuck have we got tigers on one side and, you know, possums on the other side of this random line that goes through Southeast Asia? How is that explained? And then he sent a letter to Darwin saying, hey, I've got this idea. What do you reckon?

And Darwin's like, holy shit, he's about to, you know, beat me to the punch and publish exactly what I've been working on for three or four decades, and so publish it. So, I think it's one of those things where, you know, if Einstein hadn't come up with relativity, will we have gotten it later on? I think almost certainly.

And the same thing would like, you know, the- The interesting thing is stuff like World War one and two, particularly World War Two, in terms of developing things like the jet engine and the nuclear bomb. And your kind of like, fuck. So, did we get that way earlier just because we had this massive war?

And it's like 100%, you know, like there was no chance anyone was going to be suddenly spending whatever it would have been, you know, tens, hundreds of millions of dollars on these projects, probably billions of dollars on developing an atom bomb or the jet engine at the time because there was no need but for the fact that they were going to war. Right.

And the Americans needed some way of stopping Japan effectively or, you know, telling them, there's just no point in you continuing because we'll turn the- your country into rubble. So, it is crazy, though, when you're like, so if we hadn't had World War Two, but we'd all still been born, you know, because that wouldn't have happened, obviously.

But if we had, what would we be in right now, you know, in terms of development? Would this be the fifties? Like, would we have only just worked out how a jet engine works? Would we have had flight? So...

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm more of a I suppose like- I feel like the war does more harm than it does good, like just think of how much stuff we built only to destroy.

Well, how many lives were lost.

Yeah, just how much- And then, you know, how much mayhem caused by those lives lost, how many people were just broken hearted the rest of their life and don't bother, have like tapped out. How many people, you know, limbless and stuff like that for the rest- Like are burdens on society rather than productive members, you know?

Well, even just... (both talking) ...Shifting, right, and Israel like being created and being like, good God, guys. Like talk about creating a headache for the rest of us, for, you know, a century to come.

Yeah, I hadn't thought of the big investments, though that kind of makes sense. You know, would we have, yeah, built something like a rocket engine which required multiple, multiple failures to end so much investment...?

Plastics. I think plastics came from the Second World War as well. I think in large part. I don't know how... (both talking)

...So much of the drugs did as well, you know, like meth and things like that.

Did penicillin come around about that time, too? Maybe a little earlier...

I think it was- I'm not sure that was war related, though, I think that was just some guy...

Well, I think...

...Playing around with algae and...

I think, though it was- I think that theory of germs came in from, I can't remember which war it was, maybe it was the civil war in the US, but I think it was like that. That was a huge part of people working out how disease spread and how infection spread because you had all these people effectively fighting each other with cannons and single shot rifles, and then just stabbing each other with what was on the end of the rifle, right.

And so, you had all these people that would get these wounds and would need amputation. And a big spreader of the disease was the guy chopping the legs off with a saw...

Yeah.

...Just getting on- Like, get on the table, dude. It's covered in blood, you know, there's a dead guy there. It's like, pushed him off. Get on the table, dude, we're chopping your leg- Are you going to clean that saw? You used that saw on the last fifteen guys. He's like, get on the table, dude. We're going to chop your leg off and save your life.

And then I think it was one of the surgeons doing this realised that if he just washed his hands, his patients ended up having a significant, you know, chance of living afterwards.

Yeah.

And so, again, it's one of those things where you're like, holy crap. So, if it weren't for potentially war, at least that war at that time, we may not have gotten, you know, a theory of disease and everything as soon as we did. But when would that have happened and how- It would be interesting- It would be so interesting to know when these developments would have come about without war.

If we hadn't had war throughout at least the last two or three hundred years where a lot of the industrial revolution and everything has led to these developments. How quickly would we have worked out these things that were effectively dependent on wars happening in our current timeline to have been developed? Would they have happened much more slowly hundreds of years later?

Or would it be something where because there's no war and there's not all this investment being wasted in killing one another and taking over each other's countries, would you- Would we be putting that into these technologies? But then your kind of like, well, why would you be doing that if you didn't have a need to, you know, nuke another country? Why are you going to be developing an atom bomb?

Yeah. Yeah, I think I could be convinced either way. But yeah, my personal distaste, dislike of violence of really any form sort of draws me away and makes me not want to. I was thinking about the aliens as well, like, imagine if they came here and they look at us and they're like, guys, you know, you could have can- Could have cured cancer ages ago if you just like mixed tortoise and rabbit together and ate it... (gibberish)

Yeah.

...Oh shit.

But there must be so many of those things. There must be so many of those things, right, with, like clearing of the rainforest in the Amazon, where we've probably lost, you know, a whole shitload of cures to different diseases that would have been lying there, you know, in some random rare plant found on the side of a, you know, pigs bum or something that you'll just never know about.

So, yeah, it is difficult. And you look back on history and your just like, you know, these people believe that the plague was spread through bad rumours in the air or whatever it was or, you know, that it was God's will, he was spreading the plague. And you're just like, mate, it was fleas on the bum of a rat that was carrying a parasite.

And that bit the people that were living in poor environments. And that's what spread this disease that effectively can't spread like that ever again because people don't allow rats and fleas to live in their homes.

Yeah. Well, 100% and in 30 years' time or 40 years' time people will look back at COVID and just be like, man, you guys could have solved that so easily. Why don't you just, you know...

There'll be tons of it. China, it's one of those criticisms of China where it's like, there are so many things you could have done initially to shut this down, but you were trying to save face and you hid the fact that you knew this thing was spreading around your country. You know, and I think there was evidence that they'd shut down flights from Wuhan to other parts of China but were letting them still go to the US.

And your just like, like, talk about, again, whether or not it was intentional, but the system that they have set up there allowed this to happen.

So, I'm sure any time you look back at these sorts of things, like the outbreak of COVID, there are going to be so many steps where you're just like, oh my God, you guys could have avoided, you know, so many deaths or other issues that then came forth as a result of just dealing with these situations poorly or without the knowledge at the time, right?

Like- Yeah, hindsight's 20/20.

Definitely. One thing I'd recommend people to check out, I found about this recently cos my dad sent through this video. It's called the Jaquet-Droz automata, and it's these sort of three doll like figurines that were created in- Let me get this right. I had this written down because I talked about this on my own podcast. There were these- It was in 17- Let me bring it up.

'38?

Essentially, they were these- They were like clockwork machines that this master clock maker of watches and whatnot had created, and they were probably about a metre and a little bit high, and they still exist to this day. You can find them, and I think it's a German or Swiss museum.

They look like little dolls, right? Porcelain dolls.

Yeah. And so, what- So, the Pierre Jaquet-Droz Automata, 1768 and 1774, so around that time period. There's three of them, one's the musician, one's the draughtsman, and ones the writer. So, one of them, you know, you can click a button or turn a crank or something and this doll will have a pen or a pencil in its hand and draw a figure of a cow or an animal on a piece of paper.

The most impressive one is called the writer, and it will, you know, dip- Get its hands, get an old sort of like ink, like a quill, I guess if you want to call it that...

Yeah.

...Dip it in ink, drop, like, shake off the droplets, come over, write a couple of lines and it's like it's got its hand on the table, so it writes a letter, moves the paper across, puts it down. It's just so complex, and this was built in 1768-1774. It's essentially a computer, you know, it's got a series of cogs and machines where it's like, do this if this happens and you can look into its backside.

And the craziest thing is you can just- He designed it in a way so that you can just pull-out a- Because I think basically it would sort of like a rod or something would go down, then it would follow the shape of the cog, and this would dictate the movement of the pen of the hand, and then it would drop down another and sort of follow this. And so, if you just replaced the cogs, I guess in it with...

Yeah, so there's like a cylinder of these metal discs down the back, in this what looks like a really complex clock in the back of one of these things, obviously the discs related to whatever the little dude is drawing or writing, right?

Yeah. And so, if you just place these discs with other disks, you can have an... (Cuts out) ...Automated writing machine, like this thing can write letters if you- You know, imagine you'd just spent a bit more time and it could have fully written out letters, it's almost like a really, really inefficient process, like a writing tool that- What... (Cuts out)

...Was it Gutenberg or- Luther was the one who used it for spreading the Bible and whatnot. And I was just thinking, like, man, these things are so complex, so amazing, and this was built, you know, 350 years ago. What- Or is it 250? Sorry. You know, what else could have been created if this had sort of just been followed a bit more, you know? If like silicon and electric- Like this is before electricity really, 1768.

Have you seen the, I think it's called the Antikythera mechanism? That ancient Greek mechanism that's like rusted up, and it's probably...

Was this sort of like a steam engine that they'd built?

It looks like some sort of weird computer, but it's like 2,000 years old. It's from...

How do you spell it?

So, anti, A-N-T-I and then kythera, one word, K-Y-T-H-E-R-A and then mechanism. And I was watching a doco on this, and I think it's used for tracing the, from memory, the movement of the planets. But it's this ancient Greek device that was made in the first century BC.

So, before Christ, right, so 2,100-2,200 years ago. And it was effectively one and a half thousand years ahead of its time.

Wow.

And again, it's just one of these things where you obviously had just some sort of a freak genius clockmaker type person back then who came up with this device to follow the stars, and the Sun, and the Moon, and the times of these transitions and everything, and worked out the maths behind it. Again, you're just sitting there and you're like, fuck me.

Like without the internet how- If someone told someone, even a mathematician, go out there and, you know, come up with a device like this today and you can't use the internet, you would just be like, that's not happening. And you can't use a 3D printer or, you know, any kind of- You didn't have iron, I think it's made from copper, right. So, your just like, bronze, it's made from bronze.

...Inventing all of these new disciplines on the go. You know, I'll invent this new branch of mathematics to be able to understand the movement of this thing, and yeah.

Yeah. It's crazy. So, learn about that, check out a doco. You can buy a recreation of it now, and it's effectively a box and it has these different cogs and everything in it and circles that show the movement of what timing of these celestial bodies.

I think it's called the zodiac dial, right, so. Yeah, yeah. So, it traces things like, you know, the ram, the bull, the twins, the crab, Leo, Virgo, Libra, all of that sort of stuff and their movements. And your just like, that's ridiculous.

Yeah, yeah.

Anyway, man, we've been going for almost two hours. We should probably...

Yeah, yeah, I think- Yeah, for sure, man. For sure. That was- It was fun, man. I could do this for ages, but Juan needs the camera...

Oh, good. Oh good. Thanks for coming on, man. Thanks for coming on. Where can people find out more about you and the Mere Mortals podcast?

Yeah, for sure. So, just type "Mere Mortals podcasts" wherever, we put our stuff on YouTube, it's also on any of the podcasting platforms. And yeah, if you want to hit us up, just go to any social media place, you'll find us there, so...

...What is the- What's the story behind the podcast? Who are the- Who's your audience? What are people listening to the Mere Mortals podcast for?

Man, I continually struggle with this, like the things I sort of say is like, it's philosophy in the park. So, all of the random stuff we've been talking about today, a lot of that is what Juan and I talk about. Those are the, like, my co-hosts.

So, we've been friends for a very long time. So, w- Yeah. We'll talk about the automata, then we'll talk about stupid stories, then we'll talk about how, you know, like we travel to Mexico and language things and stuff like that.

And then, yeah, sometimes we'll pick a proper topic like robots or whatnot and dive deep into that. The funny thing is, I've noticed, like some of the biggest interactions or like people giving us the biggest feedback who like really love it have been sort of like middle aged women.

And it's just- It's just like I would never have predicted that. You know, you predict, oh yeah, it would probably be like people around sort of like us, maybe a couple of years younger than us, men most likely. It was like, no. No idea, so.

Well, one of the interesting ones for me was getting people from places like Texas in the US listening to the Goss' episodes. And I was just like, what? How did you find the Goss' episodes through the Aussie English podcast when you're a native speaker of English from Texas? Your just like, I guess, the internet.

Yeah, there, that's it, man. You can't predict who will enjoy what in this world nowadays, so if you make your stuff available to all you'll find random things popping up.

Awesome. Wow, Kyrin, thanks so much, guys. Go check out the Mere Mortals podcast, and we'll see you next time.

Pleasure to meet. We'll do it again soon.