Transcript of AE 1147 - Interview: Building an Online Business with Podcasting with Lindsay McMahon

G'day, you mob. Welcome to this episode of Aussie English. Today I have Lindsay McMahon from the "All Ears English Podcast". Lindsay, how are you going?

Hey, Pete, I'm excited to be here. I'm doing great. How are you?

I'm good. I'm good. Now, Lindsay was on the podcast all the way back in episode 678. I looked that up ahead of time, guys. My memory is not that good. Where we were talking about American versus Australian English. So, go and check that episode out and obviously go and check out Lindsay's podcast "All Ears English Podcast".

Today I wanted to chat to her about podcasting, being an online entrepreneur and business, hopefully to help you guys get the gears moving in your minds, if you're ever thinking about starting an online business or your own podcast, whether or not that has anything to do with English or languages. Hopefully today we can talk about some tips and strategies and share our experiences.

Yours obviously specifically about what the process is like and show that it's not as bad as I think a lot of people think. So, Lindsay, how long have you been doing the "All Ears English Podcast"? How long have you been doing that and how did you do it? How did you get into it?

Yeah, sure. Pete, thanks for having me on again. So, we started "All Ears English" back in 2013, just before podcasting was cool. Right? This was the day- These were the days when no one, honestly, no one knew what a podcast was. It was kind of nerdy. There was just a small set of sort of self-improvement, self-help entrepreneurs doing it. It was still so small, it hadn't gone mainstream.

It hadn't gone to NPR or even Cereal yet. Right? So, it hadn't had its, boom. So, that's when I started, 2013.

Wow. So, that was about the time I think Joe Rogan started. So, this would have been before he was even a big deal. So, yeah, this was definitely in the sort of early, early days. What made you decide that you wanted to become a podcaster? Did you have a sort of big plan ahead to take over the English speaking, you know, world online and business?

Or was it something you just sort of dabbled in a little bit initially as something fun to do?

Yeah, I mean, I think three things. I wanted to work for myself and build something scalable because my dad was a business owner and when I was like seven years old, he was telling me, be your own boss. Right, it's so American. And so, don't work for anyone. Be your own boss. Build your own- I'm like, I'm seven. You know, that means nothing to me.

Get off my back, Dad. Geez, I'm trying to just do my homework.

Exactly. Yeah. But somewhere around age 29-30, that kicked in, that message came back to the fore. And yeah, and I went for it. And then also having travelled and taught English as a second language, I knew that this market was one where obviously some innovation was needed. You know, the old traditional models of the classroom, the textbook have not worked for our listeners. They haven't really worked, right, because we can't connect.

And so, I wanted to solve that problem. And then just the fact that I was a listener of podcasts. I firmly believe that if you start anything, if you build an app- If you write a newsletter, you have to be a reader, right? If you build an app, you should use apps, you should be a consumer of that media. So, it's kind of those three things.

Well, that's how it started for me. I was learning French really hardcore after taking a sort of ten-year hiatus after high school, and I was like, I want to learn a language. And I was listening to the podcast "Francais Authentic, Authentic French", and just fell in love with how he had things set up and found it really useful.

And then when I was chatting to my friends who were French saying, you know, I'm listening to this podcast and it's helping. Are you doing the same with English? They were like, what? There's no Australian English podcast like this, and that was how I ended up doing it. But...

Love it. Yeah.

...How did you get started? Like when you decided, I want to start a podcast, what does that entail? What do you need? Do you need a lot of money? Do you need a lot of equipment? It probably seems a bit overwhelming for most people. What's it like?

Yeah, sure. Well, you definitely don't need a lot of money. So, at the time I was living in Boston, and I contacted another ESL teacher in Boston who I had sort of met a couple of times and I said, hey, do you want to start a podcast? So, she was my co-host for the first year. She ended up leaving after the first year, and then after that year I hired on my co-host, and they are still here with me on my team.

So, it's been seven years, which I feel incredibly lucky. But you don't need a lot of money. I mean, it's a cliche and I always say it, but it really comes down to plugging in a microphone and being willing to start just creating those episodes. I see people get so- You know where it is, Pete, that I see people get stuck? Is that they think they have to edit their own podcast.

We- If you want to become a podcaster, that's totally different from becoming an audio engineer. If you want to be an audio engineer, go to town with the editing and the levelling. This is my opinion. You might have a different opinion and you can tell me. But I have not- I've never edited one episode. We've always had, I think my co-host the first like 20 episodes she edited, I think.

And then we hired someone right away. And I've had the same editor since then, for seven years. He's great. I don't need to know how to edit a podcast. Right? I need to know how to interview someone, how to teach a fun lesson on the show. So, what skill are we building?

Yeah.

That's the key.

Well, I guess you're wanting to focus on your skills first and foremost. What am I good at and how do I outsource what I'm not good at? And that's probably a really good point to make that if you are wanting to start a business like this, you don't have to learn everything and you don't need a lot of money.

You can find people who can edit podcasts, and I imagine when you first got started it wasn't, you know, hundreds of dollars for them to edit a podcast. It would have been tens of dollars if that, right, to just put it together and it's quick for them and bam, you don't have to do all this investment in terms of time and learning and everything.

I think though, that said, if you do want to learn those sorts of skills, it may seem overwhelming, but YouTube, man, YouTube is God when it comes to learning tasks like this. And you can learn to edit a podcast and get free music and all that sort of stuff within a day, right? Like you could work it out if you wanted to do it too. So, don't let that stop you.

Exactly. I totally agree. I mean, it's a choose your own adventure, right? I mean, that's kind of the big challenge with being an entrepreneur. You don't have a boss. So, your boss- There's no boss to tell you spend your time doing this. So, if you spend your time in the wrong way for too long, you're out of business, right? So, we need to make sure that we're doing the right things at the right time.

That's been my biggest challenge all along.

So, if someone came to you right now and was like, I want to start a podcast, give me a list of things that I need to purchase, to organise today to be able to release this thing tomorrow, imagining that they can get it, you know, they can record it and do all of that sort of stuff.

What are the kind of the first things that come to mind or the list of things that you would need in order to be able to record it, edit it, put it out online and then get on to the next episode?

Okay. So, I always recommend- I mean, if we want to be very specific and practical, I recommend, obviously you do need a minimum viable quality of audio. Right? So, you need to figure out where that is. But listen to your own show, listen to your own recordings. And is that okay for you? Because we do have a visceral reaction to bad audio and you need people to, you know, hear your intro and keep listening.

If it's bad audio, they will not listen. Right. And we're at a certain standard quality now where people have expectations. But I use the ATR 2100 and this mic cost less than $100 on Amazon. $100 is what I think you need to get started. Find your editor on Upwork or another freelancer.com site. And that's all you need. We use audacity to record locally, so I always record with my co-host.

So, we record locally on Zoom and then record on Audacity so we can put those audios together. So...

And this is a free programme for you guys wondering. Audacity is free.

Yeah. So, really, I would say all you need is about $150 to get started...

And some time. Yeah.

And some time. Yeah. So, it's really, there's still a low barrier of entry. That doesn't mean you're going to have a bajillion listeners in the first week. That's another conversation. But you can start recording episodes. Right?

So, what do you do when you want to get the podcast out there? So, you've recorded it. You've got the MP3 or the wave file on your computer, it's ready to go. What's the next sort of step for getting it out there onto people's phones so that it can get into their ear holes, and they can learn? You can drop the knowledge bombs.

Yeah, for sure. So, find a host- So, that's the other thing. You need a place to host your audios and get an RSS feed. So, if you don't have an RSS feed, it's not technically a podcast. And the beautiful thing about podcasting is that it is an open RSS feed format. That means all these apps grab your RSS feed and it goes everywhere. It's not just limited to one place like YouTube.

Youtube is great, but if YouTube goes down tomorrow, our channels are gone, right? The podcast, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Castbox. But those are just the beginning. There's, you know, there's hundreds of them all over the world that are going to grab your RSS feed.

So, we started on "Libsyn", Libsyn.com. I think that's a great place to get started for a first-year podcaster. It's really cheap. $5 a month you can get started, I think $5 or $10 bucks a month. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. And I think yeah, it sounds complicated, but literally I think all you need to do is you upload your MP3 on their website into your page when you log in and the RSS feed is already created, like you will just be able to- It's there and then you need to- I think with things like Apple Podcasts and Spotify, you'll have to go to those websites and then insert the RSS feed. But that's about it.

It sounds more complicated than it is. I would say just go to YouTube and there will be dozens of tutorials of people showing you step by step of, just do this, just do this, just do this, and then hit go and you're ready to go. And it is a lot easier than you think, right? I think Apple Podcasts, once you've set it all up and put your thing in, it takes like 24 hours and boom, your podcasts there.

Yeah, they've gotten a lot faster. I mean, you know how easy it is today compared to honestly, when we started, I think there was one guide, one PDF by John Lee Dumas or Pat Flynn on how to do this. And that was all we could find. And that was it. And now there is so- Because it is a huge industry, there's so much infrastructure, there's so much for you to get started.

So, don't let those little technical steps get in the way. You can get that stuff done in a weekend or less than a weekend. And so, the biggest hurdle is the content. So, I think the most important thing is understanding who is your target listener. Just as if you're starting a business, who are you creating this for? What is the gap in what they currently have and what you're going to give them? Right? How is it going to be a little bit different?

Podcasting is about personality, Pete, right? We put our personalities into what we're doing, so.

Yeah. How important do you think that is? I have friends in the ESL teaching realm, creating content, and they range anywhere from what I would say is me, but where I'm very extreme in sharing my life with people and you know, uploading photos and talking about day-to-day issues and even my own mental health.

And then I'll have other people who are very guarded and put up a very sort of distinct barrier between their personal life and their business. As a podcaster, though, where do you feel like the sweet spot is there?

Yeah, that's a good question. I think we know the line, right? I think we can feel it when we're crossing over it. It's different for every audience and every podcaster. For me, it's just as long as I'm tying in what I'm sharing into something that's going to benefit them. It's always about them. It's never about me. Right, if I'm having a bad day, I can talk about how to say that in English.

I can go deeper into the philosophy behind having a bad day. I can talk about how to deal with this, but it's always about them. I think that's the key, right?

Customer first.

Yeah. Yes.

So, yeah, I guess that's sort of how- How do you make good content? That's the first thing, keeping the customer in mind. How is this going to benefit them, them first and foremost? But are there other tips that you have with structuring a good quality episode? And obviously this is probably going to vary quite a bit depending on the industry you're in.

But do you want to maybe talk about how you would structure an effective episode in the ESL world of podcasting and why you do it that way?

Absolutely. So, we keep our structure quite consistent. We do short episodes because we know a typical commute is 15 to 20 minutes, particularly in the target countries that are our biggest listener base. And so, we imagine that listener getting on the train and then 20 minutes later getting off and being able to complete an episode. We like that. That feels...

That's very clever. That's very strategic. I hadn't thought of that.

Yeah, we worked backwards a little. So, we- At the very first launch, the very beginning we were doing- At first I think we were doing longer episodes and then we thought, oh, we want to publish four days a week, so why not just break up this 45 minute episode into four, now our hour episode into four episodes, and then we have the content for the week and that does help- Has helped our download significantly over the years, right.

Because you're just putting out more content, more opportunities to get found and it has a cumulative effect.

Yeah.

But structuring it, it depends on your show. Everyone has their own style. When I went on Charlie's show a few weeks ago, he had three phases to his episodes, which I thought was kind of cool. He kind of let the audience know, hey, this is the end of phase one. If you want to, you know, come back next time, we're done, or you can stay on for phase two where we're going to talk about X.

For us, it's quicker, it's more actionable. We like to include role plays because we know that our listeners love role plays. So, we'll teach something like a vocabulary point and then we'll put them into a role play. We always do a takeaway. So, these are the key notes of our episodes, but you've got to kind of figure out your own. Right?

Brilliant. Charlie too, is from the British English podcast, for anyone wondering. You were on there recently, so obviously go and check out that episode too. But I think that's the key, right? And having to get your statistics for your podcast, work out how certain episodes are performing, try different things.

I think you mentioned, you know, you don't have your own boss, so you don't really have an instruction manual for how to do this kind of work. And that's the thing that I'm kind of- It's a gift and a curse. I end up bashing my head against the wall at times because I'm like, oh, I just want to know what'll work.

But there's no one there that you can just be like, knock on their door, go into their office, and they're like, here's the answer, right? So, you have to just kind of be open to testing new things and seeing how it goes.

Yeah. And I would also say, don't lock yourself into- I don't know if podcasting is for everyone. I think some people do better on video. I personally, I hate just talking to a camera solo. I need this, like I need the chemistry between you and me, Pete. I need my co-host. Otherwise, I get bored out of my head. But some people are great just talking to the camera and have a solo show and they're incredibly successful. So, try that too.

Like, don't just say, well, podcasting is definitely my thing. Try it out, try video, try blogging, try Tiktok, right? Because I think different personalities appeal in different ways to these channels.

Well, yeah, you got to play to your strengths, right. And you might not know ahead of time what you're going to be good at. Like I never...

Yes.

...I never really had any experience podcasting and being in front of a camera prior to doing well, like recording my voice prior to podcasting and sort of diving in and then working out what do I actually- What do I like, what am I good at and what do I not like? You know? So, yeah, and then trying those different social media platforms too, and there are so many now that it's hard to do all of them and to do all of them well.

And again, I would say, and I don't know what your advice is, but pick the one that you enjoy or that you're good at and just stick to it as opposed to trying everything.

Totally. Pick the one, you know, try everything for the first month or two, and a little bit of everything like just sampling, right? Like you're at a buffet or something. And then pick the one where you feel like time just sort of stops or time- Like your kind of in the zone, you're in flow, right? I mean, for me, podcasting is that feeling of flow. I am able to be present. I can enjoy it.

I feel like it's play to me. I'm playing right now, right? Whereas when I'm trying to film a video, I'm like, oh God, the lighting is awful. This is wrong. This is crooked. I'm frustrated. Right. So, that's the key, pick the one that feels natural to you.

What do you think about expertise and starting a podcast? Do you need to be an expert in the area that you want to do a podcast or an online business, a YouTube channel about? Do you think you need to be an absolute expert first and foremost, or is this something you can kind of develop along the way?

Yeah, I don't think you need to be- I mean, what is expertise? Right. I think that the concept of expertise is evolving. You could be an expert in bringing a new perspective to an industry. Right? And we don't need to rely anymore on academia to grant us this degree, and now you're an expert.

Certainly if you're going to teach something like IELTS, so we have a second podcast called "IELTS Energy Podcast", and we only started that podcast because I hired someone who had been an examiner for 14 years. So, she's a deep, deep expert in the test, right? Otherwise, I would have felt like I needed to go and get some- At least take the exam myself, you know, study it, understand it, and make sure I had some level of expertise.

So, when you're teaching something technical like that, you should become some level of an expert. But I think a lot of this we can learn along the way.

100%. And yeah, that was sort of my finding at the start. I was like, I'm not an expert in teaching English. I've never had any credentials with teaching English. The only expertise I have is being able to use the language, you know, as a quote unquote "native speaker".

Yeah.

But then I was also, I guess, I had become an expert at learning languages and then was trying to tie all these things in, and it just- The skills grew over time. So, it was like as the years progressed I learnt more and more about, you know, what it is that I'm doing and I share my mistakes and I grow as a result.

I think people like that too, when they can see that you're not just this, you know, God in this area who has absolute knowledge of some specific topic, and you just deliver the knowledge on a regular basis. Instead, you get to share your wins and your losses and show that you are changing your mind or learning new things and having a conversation with the audience, I think a little more and showing them your journey. Right?

Exactly. So, don't let that- You know, just because you don't have traditional credentials, don't let that separate you. It's more like if you feel you have a message. So, that's the next piece that I would recommend. You know, more important than credentials is, like, kind of meaning behind what you're doing. A message, meaning what does it mean to you? Right, what does language learning mean to you? Why is it important in the world?

You want to communicate that piece and then you're building your credentials as you're going along.

Exactly. Yeah. It is one of those things you can always get educated in these areas later on in life if you want. Like I could always go and become an English teacher or at least get the credentials to do it if I really want to be able to do that. But yeah, massive thing is passion, right? As you were saying.

If you can't- If you don't already have that passion and you can't foster it, it's going to be much harder to keep doing what you're doing, and it's probably going to be a bit more of a chore, right?

Well, especially with audio, even more than video, I think, because in video you can kind of use your body language and you can kind of make it happen. Right. But with audio, people hear your voice. It's so intimate, that connection between you and your listeners, they can hear if you don't want to be on the mic. So...

Yeah.

...You know, be on the mic if you want to. Don't be there if you just you're not feeling it, so.

Have you gone back and listened to your very first episode any time recently?

Yeah, we have. Yeah, I've listened to it. It's- It should never be anywhere...

How would you say you've changed since listening to it?

Well, the actual original first episode, that episode was recorded with like a refrigerator humming in the background, wood floors, super tall ceilings, the worst conditions you could ever have.

Lots of reverb and echo, huh?

Oh, terrible. Terrible. I think I've gotten a lot more confident on the microphone, you know, feeling like at some point I stepped into, this is my place, this is where I belong, inspiring our community. And I think I wasn't there from day one. So, you do need to step into it through just hours on the mic.

Well, and that's the thing, right? Like I have a lot of people ask, how do I develop confidence when speaking English? And I'm like, there's not really sort of a one trick you can do. It just takes time, and you have to work on self-esteem too, and how you see yourself as a person. If you value yourself, you're going to build up that confidence over time and, you know, you're not going to feel nervous the same way.

And it was like that with starting a podcast, I'm sure for you, for me too. You go back and listen to me and I'm sort of a nervous, younger version of myself, who- I was sitting on a dead tree out in the park recording it on my phone. I think I was just holding my phone to my face, recording the podcast.

Sure.

But yeah, it is funny how much it changes over time, and maybe that's a good exercise for people to do. Go back and listen to big podcasts first episodes, especially if it's been quite a few years and have a listen to the change and realise that generally the person on that first episode is just like you.

In terms of experience with podcasting they have no idea what's ahead and it's, you know, just takes time and they slowly grow into those shoes, right?

Yeah. I mean, I think it's a big myth that we can think our way to being confident. Right? Confidence comes from just taking action, the thing you're afraid of doing and then that's where confidence comes from. It's not from strategizing and think, oh, I should be this way. I should be more confident. It's just action taking. That's all it is.

Have you ever done a martial art? Have you ever done something like Brazilian jiu-jitsu at all?

So, I've done a little bit of capoeira. I don't know if that's considered a martial art or like a sport. I don't know what it is. Yeah.

With jiu-jitsu because it's 100% full contact. When you first start, you get so, like, you just get the adrenaline dump when you fight someone, you know, you're wrestling with them and you just, you effectively freak out because you don't know what's happening and you're scared.

But within a few months that no longer happens anymore and your kind of just reacting and just, you know, you've effectively gotten the confidence to know I'm not going to die and I know what I need to do to get out of this situation.

And I feel it's a similar sort of thing with these sorts of like public speaking. And you have to do it. I couldn't sit at home and train myself to be- To not have that adrenaline dump the first time I go to a Brazilian jiu-jitsu class just by thinking about it, you have to go have the dump, do it for weeks, months, and then slowly it gets better and better and better and better. So, I think it's the same with English.

That's a great example. Yeah, that's a great example and it's kind of a journey. I think we have to enjoy that journey, in the moment it's painful and awful, but then you get to look back on that and say, look, that's been my growth, that's been my journey. And then we get a sense of accomplishment from it. It's fulfilment.

Exactly. So, can I ask you about monetisation? When you first started the podcast, how and when did you decide to try and make money from it? Was that a goal that was right there from the beginning, or was this something that later on happened?

Yeah. So, at the time when the podcast started in 2013, I had another business that I was building. So, I thought that was a tutoring company I was building, and I was hiring tutors in New York and Boston, and I thought that was going to be my main business. And then, like I said, this felt like play, and it felt like it was in the zone. And all of a sudden I realised, oh, this is actually the more scalable business.

And so, we started by selling transcripts, I think the first year, which was obviously, you know, fine enough to cover our costs. And then I think after about- At about the year mark, we took on our first sponsor and we monetised through sponsorships for the first couple of years. And then I started buildi- We started our first online course when I hired the IELTS expert, Jessica.

So, as soon as I took her on, I said, okay, we're building a course, right? Because you're an expert in this exam. We're doing this right away. We launched that in 2015. So, that was our journey in the first couple of years.

And how long did it take for you to get to a point where you were like, I can do this full time? I can- I make enough money, you know, to be able to not have to have, say, the tutoring company or another job on the side, or did you already have kind of like enough money saved up where you could just transition effortlessly into it and then build it up?

Yeah. I mean, I was never really doing the paycheque-to-paycheque thing. Yeah. Things were- Yeah. I always like to keep a little cushion, like not to be too much on the edge.

But I think somewhere around the time we had that online course, that first online course or IELTS course, around that time, I was able to feel like I could go full time into "All Ears English" and kind of leave the tutoring behind, maybe keep a couple of clients for myself, but stop hiring other tutors and stop outsourcing that. So, around that time, a couple of years in, I would say.

And did you know sort of at that time that your business, again, I'm assuming, it would make you more money than, say, a standard 9-to-5 job? You know, did it have that- Did you realise that sort of- What would you say? Lucratively? What's the noun for that? Lucrative... (both talking)

Yeah. Maybe your listeners know. I don't know. Yeah. I think that I always knew that there was this scalability. I never saw myself on the path for the 9-to-5 job anyways. So, to be honest, it was never about "All Ears English" versus the 9-to-5. I've really never worked a 9-to-5 and I don't plan to.

Yeah. High-five, sister.

Yes.

My wife's applying for jobs at the moment and she's always like, so when you had your last full-time job? And I was just like, guess again.

Never done it, going to the grave like that. I feel proud of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's good. And it's good when you're in a partnership, when one person does have a 9-to-5 and that works for them, and then someone else can be an entrepreneur. So, the entrepreneur is striving for this scale of income and then, you know, the other partner is able to build their career and maintain that stability. That's a nice...

Exactly.

...Can't always have that. So, yeah, I never saw that as an option. So, it was going to work or nothing. Right. So, we just went for it.

Far out. Far out. So, how has it changed over the time since you began and what have you had to do throughout the years to kind of stay out ahead of things and to be adapting, you know, to the way that things are going?

Yeah, I mean, I think I've seen some big changes in our market recently. I think that in the pandemic, in the beginning of the pandemic, we saw a real, you know, a spike in online learning because a lot of people were at home and had nothing to do. And we saw that, we launched a business English course that first year, July of 2020. Really nice results. Things were going great. And I was like, oh, we're going to make it through this pandemic.

It's going to be great. And we've seen a little bit more of a challenge into 2021 as more competition, I'm not sure if you've seen this, too, Peter, or not. Well, I've talked to a few people in this space where more schools that had been on brick and mortar have gone online.

So, things have become a bit more competitive. So, now we're looking at kind of diversifying in three different ways. We've still got our education stuff going, our courses going, building our community. We're also partnering with companies where we are licencing, our content to companies and having them have our content in their ecosystems and being able to just customise that for them. In addition to working with sponsors on our podcast.

So, kind of three key ways where we're building it out for the future and scaling up our iOS and Android apps. So, kind of those four branches, I think makes us a bit more, you know, a bit more defensible, let's say.

Yeah. Your sort of safety, right? You've got your eggs in different baskets so that if any single area has its difficulties, you've got sort of three other areas potentially where you've got income still coming in.

So, was that something that you only recently realised was going to be really important or have you been working towards diversifying and having, you know, a bigger and bigger business to the point where it's the next Tesla or something?

I don't know about the next Tesla.

Fingers crossed, right? Imagine if we could do that in the English-speaking learning world, you know?

Oh, geez. Yeah. Yeah, I think maybe this is the part of the neurotic side of me that I always look to diversify. Maybe it's because I don't want to have a 9-to-5. You know, I don't ever want to have to go apply for a job and the way that I make sure is I overcompensate by working really hard...

Yeah.

...And making sure that the business is defensible in ways that maybe your average person wouldn't really think about or wouldn't- Would just ride the wave. But I think that's an important key. Like, you always have to be thinking ahead. This is working now, but in two years what's going to be working? So, working towards that.

And just seeing where markets are going. Podcasting is getting huge. The advertising market in podcasting is getting huge. I think I just read a stat today that 2021 exceeded $1.4 billion in podcast ad revenue, like ad investment in the podcasting space. So, look at where markets are moving, where money is moving and start to diversify.

Brilliant. And last question. How do you grow a podcast effectively? So, you know, you've got your podcast up there. You are getting, you know, a small audience that is slowly growing organically. You've got some products, but what can you do to kind of push things along a little in your favour?

Yeah, there's a couple of things that I think really work. So, what I don't think works is- Or what works less well, I think is trying to move people across channels, like from Instagram to a podcast, because if they're not already podcast listeners, it's very hard to tell them what a podcast is, how to subscribe, how to follow.

So, the best way is what we're doing right now is being a guest on another show, doing a promo swap, which is something new, which I'm exploring now, which is having another podcast with a similar audience, mention your show and vice-versa. Right?

Effectively trading ads, right?

Trading ads, yeah. Exactly. And then the other thing that works is, you know, being a part of a network. And, you know, if your other shows in your network are mentioning your show, it's kind of the same thing, the promo swap idea. So...

Yeah.

...Go with people who are already podcast listeners. That's so much easier than trying to tell a Facebook user to go over and subscribe to a podcast. That's my opinion.

I think you're right. I think you're right there. Right. Like it would be, you know, advertising for gym equipment in a gym as opposed to trying to convince the average person on the street, you need to get these dumbbells, you know? And they're like, I don't even work out, dude, like I run.

Yeah, exactly. And leave it to, you know, the collective group of the mainstream media to recruit new listeners, you know, leave it to the famous, the comedian or the whoever to get new listeners and then get them in that ecosystem. And then you find them by collaborating with other podcasters. That's what I've found has worked.

Do you feel like having more and more competition today is a good thing or a bad thing?

I think it's a good thing. I was just talking to one of my employees today about this. It has to be a good thing because I love the free market. Like I love business building, like scrappiness, pivoting, like now, you know, the business is asking something more of us, right? Like I have to find new ways to make it work. And I think that's a good challenge for us. So, it gets me excited.

Well, I think too, you've got to realise that your personality is going to attract a certain audience and they're going to like you for you, right? And there's going to be people who listen to you and for whatever reason, don't like you. But still want to learn, you know, say Australian English, in my case, I'm sure I have loads of listeners.

In fact, the majority probably listen to one episode and they're like, yeah, this guy isn't for me. And they go somewhere else...

I doubt it's the majority.

I don't know, I probably get, I get in front of a lot of people and then I hold on to my main core, right? But it is one of those things where you have to be comfortable just being like, especially with the amount of competition that's out there today.

There are no longer bands that are like, what would you say, the Beatles, where it's just they just dominate everything because there are no- There is no competition, right? And so, nowadays it's much more niche.

And as a result, if you were a band following that analogy, you have to work out as you're doing with these other streams of revenue. You know, I know a band- There's a band called Periphery, and they're a sort of very technical metal band. And they- Everyone loves them because of how good they are.

But they don't make money through selling their music, they make money through programmes that they create, like drumming programmes, through private lessons, through touring and doing the live shows, obviously. So, they have like ten different revenue streams on top of it. They don't actually make money from the songs on, say, Spotify because they know that there's just you're not going to be like Justin Bieber.

The chances of you becoming Cardi B or Justin Bieber, those huge things, it's just almost impossible. So, I think that's the thing. If you're worried, how do I make a huge podcast? You don't have to be huge. You just have to have your core audience that like you and then be offering a service that, you know, they're willing to pay for and that's helping them obviously improve their lives, right?

Yeah, that's so true. I mean, if you want to be the big artist, you know, then just do that as a hobby because you love that. But, you know, it's like, what do you love more? Is it the actual work or is it the building of the company, of the vision? You know? So, figure that out.

Is it the craft or is it the business building that you love more and try to keep that in check? I would say you need to find ways to make it work, you know, if you want to have that freedom, you got to try different things and diversify for sure. Yeah.

Awesome, Lindsay. Well, thank you so much for coming on today. Where can people learn more about you and "All Ears English podcast"?

Sure. Yeah. So, you guys, if you're already, again, if you're already listening to this podcast, if you're listening in Apple podcast or Spotify or wherever you listen, you can just go and type in "All Ear's English podcast" and you'll see the yellow and that's us. Go ahead and hit follow, hit follow on our show.

And then as I said before, Pete, I am starting to offer some very basic mentoring for people who are looking to launch their own podcast so people can email me at Lindsay@AllEarsEnglish.com. That's L-I-N-D-S-A-Y @AllEarsEnglish.com. And we can chat, you can let me know what you're working on and see if I can help at all.

Awesome. Awesome. Well, thanks so much for coming on and hopefully I can get you again on in the future.

Yeah, this has been fun. I always like our chats. Thanks, Pete. I appreciate it.

My pleasure. Thanks, Mate.

Take care.