Transcript of AE 1168 - Interview - Testing My Cultural Awareness with Charlie Baxter - Part 2

Okay. So guys, welcome to this episode of Aussie English. This is going to be part two of a two-part series, obviously, where the first part was on Charlie's podcast, the British English podcast. So links would be in the description and everything like that. Charlie is here in front of me. He has come down from Sydney and he's hanging out and we're at question ten of 20 where we're going through our cultural knowledge. Right, Charlie?

We are. Yes. Lovely to be here.

How do you- how how would you assess how we've done so far out of the first ten question- well, nine questions that we did out of 20.

I think at least four of them, we looked very ignorant. Or I felt more ignorant than switched on.

Yeah.

I think two of them I came across okay. You, you managed to.

I nailed one.

You nailed one.

At least one.

At least one.

Yeah. We didn't get the Brazilian one.

That- my wife didn't get the Brazilian one. And she's Brazilian. She was like, what? This isn't a thing. All right. Okay, so here we go. Expanding your cultural knowledge by being curious and learning about. Oh, okay. All right. That's the actual info for the actual quiz. Gotcha.

What is Jewish New Year commonly known as? Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur or Hanukkah? Hanukkah.

Hanukkah.

Are you sure?

Yes. I've watched Friends before.

What about Seinfeld? Seinfeld probably would have been one that would help you more, right?

Yeah.

Although there were Jews on both, right?

Yeah, but I feel like Friends. Well, this might show my age, but Friends was in my face a lot more on TV in the UK. Seinfeld wasn't really aired in the UK.

I think we used to have them both simultaneously here in Australia. You would see them both on.

Even during your teens?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that would have been.. Yeah, it would have been the late nineties.

Seinfeld was definitely at least five years before.

Ah okay. Yeah, because Friends ended in the 2000s, didn't it? But Seinfeld started early nineties. Maybe a bit. I felt a bit Seinfeld-y today because I was I was wearing sneakers with, or runners, as I should be calling them, with jeans. And when I left the house this morning and felt very nineties, Seinfeld, this is like Jerry Seinfeld running around in, you know, runners and jeans. It's a very interesting look.

I really like his laugh. Yeah, you're in that look right now. That sort of..

Yeah, I look at that show, and I think I'd like to dress like that. I even- I even want to impersonate Kramer sometimes.

Sheez, you got it wrong. It's- it's ah Rosh Hashanah.

Ah!

Rosh Hashanah is the Jewish New Year and usually takes place in September or October, according to the lunar calendar.

So what is Hanukkah?

Um, isn't that their sort of equivalent of Christmas time?

Oh, you said New Year.

Yeah.

Ah okay.

Of course. No. So Hanukkah, also known as the Festival of Lights, is a Jewish festival commemorating the recovery of Jerusalem and subsequent rededication of the Second Temple at the beginning of the- I'm a butcher this word- Maccabean- revolt against the Seleucid Empire in the 200 BCE. So I guess that has nothing to do with Christmas, but it is on Sunday, the 18th of December, and ends on the 26th of December. So it's around the same time.

Right. Whoops. But Hanukkah is. It's almost. Yeah. No. I can't, I can't come back from that.

Yeah.

I can't come back from that. I'm an idiot.

I wouldn't have got it either. I know- I didn't even know what Rosh Hashanah is. I had heard of Yom Kippur and Hanukkah, but. Yeah. Sorry, guys. Sorry to allow- Jewish followers.

Yeah. Apologies. We're learning, though!

I know. That's it. There's a lot about China here, huh? We did like a whole bunch in the previous one. I guess they just have a lot of interesting cultural things that make us guess.

Yeah. Feel free to skip.

Nah, we can do this one. It's all good. You are managing a local team in China. How do you respond to the fact that after several weeks in your role, nobody in the team seems able to make eye contact with you. And the the options are: you are worried that the team don't trust or respect you as they can't look you firmly in the eye.

You aren't concerned as you know, that in China firm eye contact is not expected and is seen as inappropriate between managers and their teams. And three, you think that perhaps there is a language issue and the team is embarrassed that they don't understand everything you say?

I feel like common sense allows you to answer this one.

Yeah.

But again, I got the first one wrong and I was very confident. So I'm going to say the second one as in it's not required to make eye contact, especially between supervisors and people beneath them. I'm also thinking of a cultural thing in Korea where they look away or they they turn away from the heads of the table to take a sip of water.

Really?

Yeah. It's apparently disrespectful to sip in the direction of-.

The head of the table...

...father or something like that.

Interesting. I wouldn't have thought of that.

I'm thinking maybe if that spills over into eye contact.

Yeah, it's funny. I remember when I was living with Estonians in Melbourne. They have a thing where if you're drinking with them, and you take a sip, or you know when you say cheers, you need to look them in the eye. So you need to have eye contact with cheers or they don't trust you. It's seen as offensive.

Is that not in Australia?

I don't think you would need to look someone in the eyes. Like, I don't think if you said cheers to someone and they didn't give you decent eye contact that you would be like "You son of a bitch." You know, "How dare you? How dare you!?" I mean, you probably would give eye contact to the person that you're choosing, giving cheers to, or, you know, Tink. Yeah. Tinking the glass with. But I don't- yeah, I remember it being a weird thing, and I would always, with my Estonian friends, hold our contact for way too long. Any time we had beer. Yeah. And I'd be like, "Don't forget. Cheers, mate." And I wouldn't blink and 'Cheers!' And they'd be like, "That's getting weird, Pete."

So, yeah, you are correct. Remember that non-verbal signals mean different things in different parts of the world. In China, there is more distance between hierarchical levels and so strong eye contact to superiors can be seen as defined or challenging.

Hmm. I could see that. I mean, I don't agree with it. And I think you should encourage eye contact for relatability and empathy potentially.

I think it's just a respect thing. I would- it's weird. Because again, we've talked about this in the previous episode, but it's sort of a lot of these things are arbitrary. You know, that culturally we just decide that one thing means something where the opposite of it could mean the exact same thing and it wouldn't be any different, but..

Yeah, I'm shaking my head the opposite way now.

Yeah, exactly. Like yes and no, right? Nodding your head versus shaking it. It's like, well, we could always do it the opposite way and it would have the same function.

True.

But I feel like if you weren't giving eye contact at all, it would seem like you were very untrustworthy in a workplace setting. Right? Like if you always avoided eye contact, or had your head down and weren't looking at someone, you would be seen as constantly submissive or something. It would be a bit weird I think.

Yeah.

But again, two, you could be seen as overly aggressive if you were always like staring someone in the eye. And especially if you had that dynamic of being, say, a really big muscly man and working with women. If you were doing that constantly staring them down, they'd probably be like, 'Jesus, what's this dude's problem?'.

Yeah, that's a good point.

Yeah. Okay, cool. You know that one? What one piece of advice would you give to a colleague embarking on their first professional international assignment? This one doesn't seem to be like a specific country. Be yourself and remain true to your own values and principles. When you're working internationally, it's important to be as authentic. It's important to be authentic as it can be very stressful to try to be someone you're not.

Okay. Do everything you can to learn the local language and become fluent. You will only understand how people operate if you speak their language. And lastly, be aware that your new colleagues may work differently to how we do and be ready to adapt to your usual style.

They all seem good. I feel like it's a pretty obvious one, though. Well, the third one stands out. Yeah, but it's good to be yourself still.

I guess it depends. This is one of those interesting ones. We have the, I think it's like in the Bible, right, where 'do unto others as you would have done to yourself'. And from- I don't know if it's an Islamic thing, but I think I heard someone say effectively the opposite thing in a different cultural context where they were like, 'do unto others as they would have done unto them'. Right? So do to people how they want to be.. Treat people how they want to be treated, not how you would treat yourself, right.

Because the context would be like if I had Muslims come over and I wanted to treat them how I treat myself. Yeah, I'll cook them up some bacon because I eat bacon. And the idea there is well, clearly they don't. So you would try and take them to account, how do they want to be treated and you would treat them differently from yourself.

Right.

So it is one of those interesting things of when you go overseas, I think you could think I'll do what I would do to myself or people around me.

I would treat them as I would treat myself. But that doesn't take into account the cultural differences and how they treat themselves and that they may be different and want different things and see things as offensive that you would otherwise not see as offensive. And so being sensitive to that is really important. That's why I think the third one was..

Yeah, yeah.

My obvious..

Yeah. It's the obvious one. But I still think that the first one, like, it could be interesting to discuss it. So if you- So I know that Kazakhstan is, as as many other nations, they eat horse meat quite a lot. And if you were saying about bacon. So if if a Kazakhstani came to Australia and they declared that they eat horsemeat a lot and they brought it to the office in Australia, would that cause an issue? Do you think?

No. But this is one of those interesting things where I think Western cultures, at least in Australia, kind of- I feel like we bend over backwards to accommodate other cultures. And so I think if you were to put us in a position where you were offering us something that we would otherwise see as undesirable or, you know, find disgusting, I think because we would try and make you feel comfortable, we would go out of our way, right.

To say in this case, eat the meat that we would otherwise think. You would never do that. Like you would never go out of your way to consume a horse in Australia because you would see it as a pet, not a food source. But you would also understand that in other countries it's again arbitrary, right? Animals are animals and that plenty of other countries eat other animals.

Yeah.

But I think as an Australian, if I would. One, I would, if I was overseas in Kazakhstan and they did it, definitely. I would never eat it myself here in Australia by my own choice. But if they were offering it, I would be like, I don't want to disrespect anyone. This is what needs to be done to show respect. I want to show respect. I'm going to go out of my way to do so. And I would do it if they came to Australia and did it too. I wouldn't be like, 'This is Australia. I'm not fucking eating your meat', you know, 'No way. Get out of here.' You know, I would never have that attitude. I would be 100% bending over backwards to as well make them feel accommodated. Yeah, but I feel like when Westerners go overseas quite often we just kind of expect that we need to be accommodating of other people in their own place and we don't expect for them to try and be accommodating towards us at all.

We don't have, at least I personally, would never have that assumption of they need to, you know, 'I'm going to Japan so they better have some Vegemite and toast for me when I get off the plane because that's what I eat'. You know, I would never have that kind of assumption, right. So but I think there probably are some people who are like that, but- 'Where's my Vegemite?' But yeah.

Well, that is actually a thing with British people on holiday because there's lots of little British supermarkets in like the south of Spain or south of France.

Yeah, well, that's just a business etiquette thing, right? Like, they knew, 'Ah, we can make heaps of dough. There's loads of Brits that come here, sort of sell them their own stuff from home. Here's some Marmite, mate.' Exactly.

But I don't know. How do you feel about it? Is that something that Brits are aware of? Like cultural differences and trying to be socially and culturally sensitive, and make other cultures feel welcome to, whether it's at home in Britain or they're abroad in other countries.

Yeah, I think Brits are very sensitive of it. I've noticed over because I've come to Australia a couple of times. Once when I was 18 and another time when I was ten, 18 and 30. And since the last time, I feel like you guys are a lot more focussed on trying to pay respect to Aboriginal people.

Yeah, and that's definitely changed in the last few decades.

Yeah. So I think, I think yeah, Brits are similar to that in, in the terms of you know, welcoming everybody and trying to make right. I think. There's just so many cultures in the UK though that it's almost impossible not to..

Well, wear that but without the long history of quote unquote being, you know, say, a white country, because we colonised Australia in the 200 or something years ago and our history is pretty short comparatively like indigenous history is much older. And even if you were to go to Britain, you would be like, 'Well, they've been here for thousands of years at least the European British people were there'. So you can understand that they would at least be like somewhat culturally conservative, whereas it would be weird, I feel, for the average Australian. And I think we now think there's more and more to be like 'We're Australian mate', you know, 'We're white European Australians and this is how it's always been done.' And you're like, Well what for the last 200 years? That's nothing, mate. You know, the indigenous people could say that and they've been here for 60,000 years. So you would. I think we're becoming more and more sensitive to that and the fact that Australia is a big melting pot of different cultures now. So you just..

Less and less, kind of like 'my way or the highway'. And I think people are more and more curious now too, about other cultures. Like, there are loads of different restaurants everywhere. People want to try different foods. People want to experience different things too. So yeah.

Yeah.

Anyway, so we think it's 'be aware that your new colleagues may work differently to how we do and be ready to adapt your usual style'. We got it correct.

It would be a bit strange if this website said the opposite.

Yeah. Don't try and adapt to the local people and their culture. Yeah. What does it say here, when you are working internationally? "When we are working internationally, we need to find a balance between remaining authentic and adapting to the other style. It is always important to understand that your new colleagues may have different ways of working and to adapt when it will help things work more smoothly." Yeah, I think that's just a good attitude to have in general, right?

Yeah, I agree. I agree.

Yeah. But it is an interesting thing and this is why I like a lot of the Aussie English listeners, and I don't know if it's the same for the British English podcast, but when I talk to them, they seem to be the kind of people that have come to Australia and are diving into the culture and the history and the language. They're really trying to adapt.

And so it seems to be they're very aware of that kind of attitude. When you go to a new country, especially those migrating, they're like, I want to be Australian. And I wonder, is it the same sort of thing with with Britain, with migrants? Do they feel like they can become British the same way that the average foreigner can come to Australia and become Australian? Or is there a bit of a difference there because British, Britain has such a long history in comparison. A long, a long European white history in comparison.

Uh. Yeah. Interesting. I could say go down a couple of routes there, but I would say that the stereotype of an Australian, a white Australian, is more, is still stronger than a white Brit. Like I would say, Brit, British people. Just any kind of culture.

Yeah.

Now thrown in to the land of the United Kingdom.

Interesting.

So maybe people can identify with a different variety of cultures within that.

One of the interesting things I've noticed is where you see, say, people of different races in Britain speaking with very regional accents. And you're kind of like, holy shit, you know, like this person has a Glaswegian accent and they're black. They are clearly, you know, say they've got heritage from the West Indies or from Africa or something, but they have this strong, like Billy Connolly-esque accent from Glasgow. That always blows my mind because in Australia we don't have those kinds of regional accents, so that when we get migrants they end up with a general accent, usually like most other Australians.

But because we don't have that long, long, long history in Australia of one language that was spoken and ended up with these regional differences, they can never sort of learn these very, very, very specific dialects of Australian English. It's just general Australian English. But in Britain you've got probably hundreds, right, of different regional dialects and accents and they're still maintained till today and that migrants can end up in a little area where their children go to school with, say, people from Glasgow and end up with a Glaswegian accent whilst their parents speak with a, you know, a Somali accent or something.

Is this, do you think, more to do with the fact that Australia is a newer country with a first generation not having lived in Australia long enough?

I think part of it is- that's probably becoming the case more and more and more where you've got this mixing of new and new generations. But I think mostly it's just that we're a young country in terms of European migration and colonisation, and when the place was colonised it wasn't colonised by a single location. We had this mix of people from everywhere in Great Britain, Scotland, Ireland, even some from America. And you ended up with this kind of like, um, ironing out of all the different accents.

So within the first generation, all the children were actually much more affected, pronunciation wise by their peers than by their parents. And so I think it was the children and the grandchildren of the first colonists that came to Australia who effectively determined their accent. And they kind of found a certain level between all these different ones and they all converged effectively. And so that only happened in the last few hundred years. And so we didn't really have any isolated towns the same way that Britain would have had over hundreds or thousands of years, where you had pockets of people in a population spread across the landscape. Like most China, Russia, all these countries that had populations effectively ever.

Yeah.

And had time to develop unique cultures and languages and even well, just dialects in general. Pronunciation. Even America ironically, seems to have this, I think because of its size and because it's 100 or 200 years older than Australia in terms of again, European colonisation, it had time to have different dialects kind of emerge and they were a bit isolated for a little longer, whereas the majority of Australia was never quote unquote colonised by, you know, didn't have towns or anything for a long time. It was just along the coast. There were a few big cities and there was a lot of mixing between them.

Yeah.

And I think too, you had just constant people coming from Great Britain over at that time.

So it kind of maintained that standard general accent that we had.

Mmm. Do you know anything about the reason that there was a variation between, you know, a typical English accent and then coming over? Like the transition between British accent and Australian?

Well, I think that we had a lot of- we had a lot of lower class people. So there were probably. Speaking with very- what would you say, like, cockney English? I think there were a lot of people from Ireland and Scotland as well, with again, just completely different accents. And you didn't have a lot of the upper class, you know, Received Pronunciation kind of people, at least initially when it was being colonised, coming over and staying here permanently. They were here for a little bit, working, as you know, soldiers, and then going home and being like, 'screw this place'.

All those- all the convicts that came over, where this mish mash of people from all over Great Britain that were the undesirables, the criminals that were sent over as convicts.

Yeah.

And then I think they were all obviously mixing together. And as a result, you all just end up kind of converging on a dialect or a way of pronouncing words, especially if your children go to school. Like when I went to school, I had American teachers, British teachers, but I never picked up their accents.

I never copied them. I copied the kids in the class. We all spoke a certain way. We use different slang words, we use different expressions that we came up with and everything. You were much more impacted by your peers who are your age than you were, even your parents or your, you know, the other adults in the town or the city or whatever. So I think that's that biggest thing. It's an effect where the children, the next generation, effectively decide how we're going to talk and fit in as a certain group. And they saw themselves as unique. I think they were called Stirling.

What was it? Stirling. There was currency, local currency. I think they were called currency lads and lasses, and it meant like they were born and raised in Australia compared to the Stirling lads and lasses that were the people who had come from Britain as like say settlers later on.

Right.

And so there was already this divide socially between those who were considered to be born and raised in the colony in Australia and those who came later as adults. And they would have obviously had this drive to maintain their difference and be like, We're Australian, this is our language, our the way we speak and this is how we can signify that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. I've got an Aussie friend who classes himself as an amateur historian and he said that there's genuine evidence to prove something to do with the fact that a lot of people coming over were heavily intoxicated with alcohol, he said.

Like the slurring is like it's a- it's a myth that actually..

Could be true.

Kind of based on something.

I think, well, back then people consumed a lot of alcohol that was weaker, but they consumed a lot more of it because it was, it wouldn't spoil on boats. So water would go off pretty quickly. And so you would end up having to drink grog, which was like dilute rum and alcohol. Or even dilute beer in order to stay hydrated.

Does grog still mean just that?

No. Well, grog just means alcohol now.

Yeah.

But back then it was a diluted form, I think, of rum or beer. It was effectively just, it had enough alcohol to kill bugs, bacteria and fungus or whatever else because they were kept in wooden barrels. Right. And so the water, pure water would go off really quickly within a week or two, I think.

Right.

And so you would have it initially and then you wouldn't have it after a few weeks and you would be on the boat for months until you could potentially restock with fresh water.

Yeah.

And so they were always drinking alcohol. Everyone drank alcohol, but it wasn't like they were just drinking, you know, 40% whisky out of a bottle. It would be, you were having a pint of rum or something.

I think they had rum. Like they would have had good quality or higher percentage liquor and they were often paid with that too.

Yeah.

And Australia had that history. I was just reading about it where we, for a long time there was no currency here in Australia. It was banned by the British Government because I didn't I don't know the specific rules, but I think they want it to be able to control the economics here in Australia. And so people found a different way to trade, or a different thing to trade with, and they used rum. And that's why we had the rum rebellion in Australia where again the Government was trying to control who owned the rum, how much it could be sold for, and everything like that.

And the average person, everyone drank it, everyone consumed it, everyone traded with rum, and they all had a certain allotment, I think too, that they could get from the government on a regular basis. And so there was a rum rebellion. If you look that up in Australian history, I think that's where the convicts effectively raged up at the leaders and the, the Corps, the Rum Corps, I think. So that army ended up sort of controlling it all and using it to enrich themselves. So any boat that would come, they would buy all the rum at a certain rate and then sell it at massively marked up prices to the local population.

And everyone wanted it so that they would make, you know, millions of dollars comparatively to today's money by selling rum. And there was a good book that I was just reading. I'm about to interview the author. Um, and I've just had a brain fart on the name of it. But effectively, the story is by Adam Courtney. I'll, I'll remember it, but effectively the story is that a, a plane, a boat comes out to Australia with heaps of rum because they know they can make a lot of money from it.

Right.

A trading boat and it shipwrecks down near Tasmania and the people on the boat have to try and get help and they have to walk all the way from- they get to the mainland of Australia and then have to walk 600 miles to Sydney to get help.

Do they carry any rum with them?

No, they put like I think it's like 600 gallons of it in the islands on Tasmania to hold on to it. And then once they actually get to Sydney, they send a boat that goes, and a whole bunch of them go and pick it up and bring it back and then sell it.

Right.

Yeah.

So.

The idea of water going off on, on boats, I understand, my basic understanding is that if water is stagnant or it's, it's in one place.

Yeah.

It's, it goes off, algae, kind of..

I think if anything gets in there. Yeah. Bacteria and algae and everything.

So if they created a little system where it was like just running through something.

A filter?

No. Well, like, just like, you know, like a little mini waterfall.

To aerate it.

Yeah. Would that be..

I feel like that would just introduce bacteria and everything, wouldn't it?

But running water is apparently good, isn't it.

Do you mean on a boat? Or you mean..

I mean on a boat, but like create a little contraption that allows it to just keep running.

I don't know. I think they had hundreds of years to try and work out a solution and they never came up with anything.

I think I've solved it.

I think grog was much easier.

Yeah. Well, Germans did that as well.

Yeah, they..

They had beer, but I think they had it because water was, they didn't boil it.

Yeah.

In the process. So it had cholera.

Oh really.

So they would have, um, two year olds and above on like a light beer.

Jesus.

Yeah.

They just didn't realise that they needed to kill the bugs, before germ theory.

Yeah. Yeah, germ theory came in, what?

Late 1700s.

Okay.

I think.

Okay, I think they were even having beer until like the 1900s.

Maybe it's just easy though, too. And then it becomes a cultural thing.

Yeah. Um. But am I to think that if you don't know-

Ah, germ theory is 1861.

Okay.

Yeah.

If you don't like rum. And you don't want to drink alcohol. Then why work?

What, back then?

Yeah. Well, I think you would just sort of there'd be no option, right? It would be a social thing where everyone does it. And there's if you- there were probably teetotallers, right? People who didn't drink like pastors or something related to the church, but they would have probably traded in it. Found a way to benefit from it all the same, right?

Yeah. You can trade in it of course.

Yeah. Yeah. You don't have to down it instantly.

What is it, Bill Clinton? "I smoked but didn't inhale." because he's talking about marijuana? Yeah, I just. "I held the cigarette and the marijuana cigarette, and I smoked it but didn't inhale it." Oh, okay. Sure.

Okay, here we go. Next question. You have taken over the management of an international team based in Dubai. Halfway through your first formal meeting with the team. With the team, one of them picks up all his things and leaves the room without saying anything. What do you do? Immediately follow them out to find out exactly what they're doing. Ask the rest of the team what they think the problem is. Um, let the moment pass and continue the meeting, then later speak with a trusted colleague to try and understand what might have caused them to leave the meeting.

This is intriguing because I want to know what the difference is in Dubai, because in England I would uh oh, I don't know what I'd do.

You just stand up and you'd be like, What the fuck is your problem? That would be- "The hell is this guy doing?" You would humiliate them in front of the entire office and definitely not have any problems with HR after that.

Yeah. Make a sexist comment. No.

Yeah. Things not to do.

Yeah. I wonder what the by reference is here.

I guess it's the, you know, Arab world. And maybe there are certain I have no idea in terms of.

But it seems logical wherever you are to go for the third option.

Yeah. Yeah. I got I, I get you. Yeah. I think you would probably just be like, 'Okay, moving on' and then deal with it later. Right.

Yeah.

Mhm.

Unless you've got a, you know, a grudge against them and you want them fired. Maybe they were, they were brought in by their dad. A bit of nepotism and you want to kick them out.

It'd probably depend on who you are in the meeting and what the meeting's about as well. Right. Like..

We need some specifics!

If you're the boss of that meeting, leading the meeting, and it's about something incredibly important and the person just gets up and rages and leaves, it's probably a lot more different than if you were having a meeting about where you're going to have Friday night drinks, right? Like after work. Um..

Would you have a meeting about where you're going to have Friday night drinks?

Probably informally. I wouldn't. I wouldn't book a meeting room for it. I don't think. You think you'd probably just send out an email. 'So, guys, where are we going?' I reckon it's the third one, too. And it's one of these ones where you can tell it's gonna be the long descript answer.

Ah, let's hear it.

Yeah, it is. There may be personal or cultural reasons unknown to you that have caused this person to leave the room. Challenging them or their colleagues in the moment may cause them to lose face. And in the early days, it might be better to wait until you have all the facts before jumping in.

I feel like that's relevant for any culture.

Yeah.

Why did they say Dubai?

I don't know. I guess they're just trying to include other cultures. It's. But yeah, you could probably pick anyone, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

Someone rage quits. What are you going to do? Okay, next one. Uh, when communicating with new team members who don't speak your language as their first language, what is the best strategy? Speak more slowly and loudly than usual to avoid any misunderstanding. I have a feeling that's not the answer. Speak naturally, but make sure you avoid using colloquial language, jargon and idioms that may be difficult to understand.

Or three, identify the person who speaks your language best and get them to translate for the team. That's it.

I feel like we're cheating a little bit considering our background, but definitely option one.

You reckon?

No. Option two.

Just scream in their face until they understand, that's it. Because communication is directly correlated with volume.

Yeah. Scream idioms at the translator.

So I take it you're going for number two?

Number two, and that's not a poo.

Did we talk about that in this episode or..

No, the one, that's the other one. So guys, if you if you want to understand what I'm talking about, maybe go over to that one. Yeah, yeah. We were talking about number ones and twos and sorry for coughing, guys. I'm still healing up. All right, so the answer is, it is. It is number two. It is important to maintain a natural channel of communication while making sure you use low risk more easily understandable language. Yeah.

Solid.

But I think that's a natural thing. Right? Like, I often have this conversation with people who follow us in English and send me messages about colleagues. And they often say that they have trouble with men who are tradies that they work with if they're a foreigner. And I think, my my feeling is that a lot of people in that industry are probably not that used to working with, or being surrounded by foreigners, where they've had to learn to adjust their language at different times with different people in order to be able to communicate.

So they just speak to you as if they would someone else that they know from the same town, the same country, everything like that. They don't adjust their language at all. And that's where that difficulty in communication lies. Like I've often had that, I've got a job as a carpenter. I'm working with five other blokes, five other men, on a trade site, and I don't understand anything. But I listen to your podcast and I understand you 100%, and I'm always like, I think the thing here is not going to be you don't understand the language they're speaking. It's the idioms, the slang, the social jokes or whatever that they have at the worksite that they're going to use that you just have to adapt to.

Yeah, definitely. Um. Yeah. So. Do you, do you feel like when you speak to a tradie, do you change your language?

Yeah, I've definitely become more Aussie.

Yeah?

Like the voice will get a bit deeper. Oh, yeah, mate. Yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah, if I was out there the other day, you know. Oh, fuck, you know, fuck, fuck. You just drop that. It depends on the person. I'm sort of half kidding, but if they are much more relaxed, I think we all do this right. And I remember interviewing a linguist.

I can't remember which one, but I remember chatting to a linguist and she was telling me that everyone in every language speaks multiple dialects effectively, and you have to adjust between them depending on who you're talking to. So if I was talking to the Queen of England, I would clean up my language. I'd probably articulate a lot more. I would say my TS in water. I would probably be very much more polite. I would be using different kinds of adverbs and you know, I would be trying to be on my sort of poshest best behaviour, which probably still wouldn't be very good, right? She would still be like, Oh, you underling, you know, this, this gross peasant.

But then if I was chatting to my kids, I'm not going to be using big words or complicated idioms or even a lot of slang words at the moment, unless it's sort of like nouns for things like 'Where are your undies? Where are your undies?' 'Do you want some biggies?' You know, and so and you'll even change your intonation and stuff, right? And then if I'm chatting to women, I'll probably change the way in the words that I use, you know, I'm not going to be calling someone a Sheila in front of their face, or that's- and I don't really use that word anyway. If I talk to guys, I'll probably swear a little more than I would with a woman, you know? So I think we do adjust those kinds of things, right? Naturally, yeah. How do you feel about it?

Uh, yeah, I, I go through waves of feeling like I should be more consistent with the default 'me'. But again, it's true. You don't really know the default you.

Yeah.

Without, you know, if you're in a vacuum, how would you know what your personality is..

Exactly.

..Based on the surroundings. So it's interesting to think.

Yeah. Are you 'you' when you're alone? Is that 'you', or are you 'you' when you're with other people? Are they bringing out the real you?

Yeah.

It's like Inception. Yeah.

Yeah, I think they do bring out the real you.

Yeah.

I think that's the end result. Because. Because otherwise.

That's- that's a problem. Because I'm only ever an arsehole when there are other people around. When I'm on my own. I'm never an arsehole. I never think I'm an arsehole when I'm by myself. But I've only ever been called an arsehole when there is someone else around, right? Like, just never happens on my own. But I just think, Damn, Pete, you arsehole.

Do you ever dance in front of the mirror?

Only naked.

Good.

No, no. Not frequently. In front of the mirror. I might dance, but I won't dance like I'm just by myself in the front of the mirror. No.

Like if there's one, if there's a good song on, and you're on your own.

And you're in front of a mirror.

Well, if you're in the room and there's a mirror around.

I think I'm only usually in front of a mirror if I'm in the bathroom.

50% of which- 50% of the time I'm naked. Well he's looking across the room at the doors here. Yeah, I pulled the doors off the cupboard which is currently full of plants and a light, so.

But they used to be where the plants were and that is directly opposite where you sit.

Yeah, but I'm on a computer screen in front.

Yeah, but I'm imagining..

Just me dancing the whole time.

You hear a good song on Spotify and then you start bopping along. You're like, 'Yeah, boy!' You look in the mirror, 'This guy!'

Oh, look, I looked up and I was just like, 'Fuck, I'm legend!' No, I don't usually do that. No, no, not by myself. Ah, only in front of my wife. Yeah, to myself.

Yeah. I don't know why I'm bringing this up because I don't do this now. When I was a teenager, though, I did dance in front of the mirror a little bit.

Yeah.

Just because I guess I wanted to see how I would look in front of other people.

Yeah. When I'm dancing in front of a mirror. It's like, 'Mom, can you come in for a sec?' 'Charlie, I'm not coming in to the bathroom again. Leave me alone.'

All right, next question.

Yeah.

You're on a business overseas. You're on a business overseas. You are on.

On business?

Okay. Yeah. My God. My God. My English needs work. You are on business overseas. I was looking for 'on a business trip overseas'. You're on business overseas for two days and have the evening to yourself. How might you best spend your evening? I feel like that's very dependent on where you are. Um. Okay. Writing up your notes from your meetings while everything is fresh in your mind. And preparing in detail for tomorrow's meetings. Okay, that's one option.

Taking a walk around town and having dinner in a restaurant frequented by locals and with no menus in translation. Damn, that's bad ass. Especially if there's no pictures.

Yeah.

Checking out a local expatriate network social event. I feel like you could do any of these.

Wow. This is a really, really strange question.

How might you spend your evening?

Is 'Option D: Dance in front of a mirror' there?

No, not currently. We can put it there. I have a feeling that it's gonna be. Oh, I don't know, I reckon, number one, but what do you reckon?

Uhhh..

It's a difficult one. Any of those could surely be acceptable. You could make an argument for any of them.

Yes. No. Number three. That's kind of cheating, isn't it?

Check out a local expatriate networks social event.

You've only got two days in the city. I think the most culturally aware thing would be number two.

Yeah, well, I guess, yeah. In terms of cultural awareness. Taking a walk around town and having dinner in a restaurant frequented by locals with no menus in translation. Why do you need that with no menus in translation?

Because you can't cheat and use your own language to try and engage with the culture.

You got it right. Being curious and stepping off the beaten track is a great way of learning about a new culture.

There we go. But yeah, you could end up with..

I feel like you can show up at business at the meetings tomorrow and be like, 'Well, I had great time going out to restaurants that I couldn't read the menus of, but I didn't prepare for the business that we're doing today.'.

Yeah, that's true.

Well, maybe you did both. Maybe you killed two birds with one stone.

Hmm. It could be rude in some cultures to take your work to the restaurant.

But if you're by yourself, I'd be like, what? I'm alone.

I can imagine. I did that yesterday, but I can imagine that could come across as rude in some places. Like you're not respecting their food.

Wow.

Do you know what I mean?

Yes. It's like weirdos who go to restaurants and then read books. I had, I remember when I was a waiter at.

.. some weirdos. Yeah. Why is that? I haven't done that. But why is that?

Well, contextually, it's when you take your partner and you read a book.

Oh.

So I guess I'm the example. Sorry, I should have given more context. The example I was thinking of was there, there was a sort of middle aged couple, probably fifties, came into the restaurant. I was the waiter, was a Spanish restaurant. Tapas. Ordered the food and everything and he just whips out a book and starts reading and she just sits there by herself. And I remember just being like, Jesus Christ, dude, like, anytime in a place you can read anywhere. You're at, you're out to dinner and you're not even talking. I remember thinking it was so weird. It's going to stick with me forever that they were just sitting out, having dinner, eating the food. But the food was on the table too, and he was just reading a book and eating at a Spanish restaurant. And, you know, that's something you would imagine you don't do on a regular basis, so you would try and enjoy with someone else. And she was just sitting by herself. I can't remember she was knitting or doing something else to occupy her time, but obviously their relationship was much more of a 'I need to be around my partner and be comfortable than I need to be interacting with them directly.'.

Well, I mean, if you're spending 24/7 with your partner, and some people do, I feel like since moving to Australia, that's nothing. That's what I've been doing a lot of with Stacy.

Just going somewhere to a nice restaurant and reading a book.

No.

While she eats her food.

While she knits.

That's it.

No, we haven't done that. But what I'm getting at is you go to these places and you're like, 'We've got nothing to say.'.

You've got some new food in front. 'Well, this is interesting. What have we got here?' 'What did you order, darling?' 'Oh, that's. That's very spicy.' 'What's this one?' Like, I feel like- I don't know. I just. At least at the time, I remember thinking, and who knows, maybe I'll get to 50 years old and I'll be like, 'Fuck, where is the book?' Like,

Ha! Always the..

I always got a book with me just in case, you know, the food isn't interesting enough to get a conversation going. But I just remember thinking, surely you guys are like besties, you know? Don't you talk about anything and everything? You talk about the weather. But it just seemed weird that in a social situation, you would do something so..

Antisocial.

Yeah, so antisocial. So sort of like, um, you could just not be at the restaurant and read then, right? Like, imagine bringing your TV and watching the game whilst eating your food. You would just- or like watching a YouTube video on your phone whilst eating dinner. You'd be like, um, what?

Yeah.

And, and because it was occupying his hands, so he was kind of like eating whilst having the book. I feel like it's just a weird- I can't imagine eating and reading a book. Like if you had spaghetti or something or some food that's going to potentially mess the book up. It just seems like something that needs your concentration 100%, right? Like, this is weird. I..

I so badly want to go to dinner with you and get a book.

This is where, this is where I'm going to get some message that says it's very culturally disrespectful because in my country, wherever that is, in order to eat food, you must be reading at the same time, you know, like someone's going to be like somewhere in the world. It's actually impolite to not be reading whilst you eat.

Yeah. You touched on the, the idea of not being able to just have a good conversation with your partner in that whole argument. What do you think of the fact that sometimes when I go on a walk with Stacey, we sometimes put an airpod in each of the same podcasts and we listen to a podcast.

No, that I can understand, because you're still sort of sharing the moment.

Okay.

Like, so if he was reading the book with her, to her,

Oh, 'to'.

Like I can- at least that's you interacting with the person. But if, like, if you guys went for a walk and both of you had your AirPods in listening to different things, you'd be like, That's a little weird.

Yeah.

You know, wouldn't you just go separately?

Yeah.

Or at different time- I would pick something else. Like if you- why would you organise the event to be together, but then not spend the time interacting. That's the weird aspect to it, I guess. I feel like that's why I never got going on a date to films. Because you kind of sit there quietly and don't interact. I would always be like, Why don't we just go get dinner or have a coffee or talk?

Yeah.

And like, and if we talk in the film that's culturally insensitive, people are going to 'Shut the fuck up!' These guys are making out again. I agree. I always found that weird being like, 'Hey, do you want to go to a film?' I'd be like, 'No, I want to hang out with you and get to know you.'.

Yeah.

I can watch this another time.

What do you think about going to a comedy gig?

I guess it depends on the length of time, too, and what's going on before and after. So maybe that's part of it too. Maybe you're on a date in this person really wants to see this film, but you're going to spend a lot of time before and after it. But it would seem weird if you just met them at the cinema, sat down for the film and then parted ways. You'd be like, So we got to sit next to each other in silence.

Yes.

Or in watching the film. And that was the date. How did it go? Oh, yeah, she's lovely.

Yeah, she's my soul mate.

She has. She emits a decent amount of warmth when you're about half a foot away from her. That was what I got out of that interaction, you know, like. Yeah, it was great. She laughs. She laughs well at the inappropriate parts of the film.

Although I would have learnt something about my partner, is that she eats popcorn. Oh, terribly loudly.

That would have been a deal breaker for me.

Yeah. And I'm still embarrassed by it sometimes. Like in Germany, I felt really disrespectful because I think they respect noise a bit more than English people do.

As in they don't like it? Or they..

They don't like it.

..deal with it. Yeah.

And, and therefore they don't do it either.

I get so angry with my wife where she will be, she will- in the evening sometimes and hopefully she can't hear me. She's in the other room, will- oh, she'll come home after work and it'll be like 8 p.m.. The kids are in bed. I've had dinner and she'll get like a packet of chips or something and just sit down next to me whilst I'm watching YouTube on the couch and just smash them and I'll just turn around and be like, Are you fucking kidding me? Like, you know, like Kelly.

Like Jesus Christ, can you eat the chips somewhere else whilst I'm not sort of sitting here quietly listening to something? Or can we just both eat at the same time? Like, it's almost like you need to be- it's, it's a mismatch where one of you is smashing really loud food and the other one of you is sitting in silence trying to do something else. Right? And she'll be like, I just want to be around you. And I'd be like,

Aww.

I get it, but come- all right, I'm just going to not watch YouTube. I'm going to put this aside and I'm just going to watch you eat instead, you know, like have let's have a chat. But it is funny. It is one of these things that I notice really grates on me where, when someone's eating and you're not, it can be one of the most annoying things in the world. Especially if you can hear like (munching sounds), you know, like those sounds when you're not making them, it's almost like it's- it's it's just not the right setting when there's only one party interact like, yeah, doing that and the other one's not.

Yeah.

Feels weird, right?

Yeah, I know, I get it. But it sounds like you've got very strict times in which people can snack in your household.

When I am.

Yeah, right. I'm snacking, everyone!

Quickly. You've got 5 minutes to eat! After that, food down and you have to wait until I'm hungry again.

I like to set a timer for 5 minutes.

No, they can snack. They just kind of snack in the same room, you know, as me, you know? I don't know. It's just it's one of those things. I think it's a phobia, not a phobia that you're scared of, but one of those things where you just hate people's eating sounds that they make with their mouth.

Well, that is a big-

As opposed to the eating sounds they make with their hands, you know.

That is a big one.

Yeah.

I think a lot of people are put off by the sound of people eating.

Oh, it used to drive me nuts. So I used to have a housemate who did that and it would be, he would eat with his mouth open so loudly. And I think it was a- he was from a different culture. I'm not going to name it because you guys all rage up at me. But he was from a different country, different culture, and I think it was something that they would do as a way of showing that they enjoyed the food.

Oh, I've heard that, yes.

But I was always like, he's the one who cooked the food. Of course he fucking enjoys it. Like you- like it. We show it, you know, at a restaurant saying, you know, this food's great, it's your food.

So, I mean, like an Italian cooking a dish and go, Hmm,

I know this the best! Nailed it. Compliments to the chef.

Go. Me!

I know. Yeah. No. So I remember him doing that, and I could hear him from my bedroom. I'd be in my bedroom. There would be the lounge room outside of that. And then the kitchen where he would be eating. And if nothing was on, no TV or anything, I could hear him. Going (smacking sound) and I would just be like, God damn it, Lucas. Goddamn it. Can you just not, like, 'Want to rage, quit and go for a walk outside?'.

Yeah, that's substantial. You should have had the five minute timer for him.

I don't think he would have listened. He was an MMA fighter, so I think he would have been like, Yeah, I didn't give a shit. Deal with it. And he would have been fair to say that. I think it was- share house. You got to make concessions.

Definitely. Definitely.

Anyway.

Yeah.

Let's get to the next question.

Yeah.

Um, you're delivering training to a group of Japanese expatriates on secondment at your offices, and you notice that most of the group have their eyes closed while you are explaining a technical process. How do you interpret this? One: They are concentrating and listening hard. Two: They are suffering from jetlag and struggling to stay awake. Three: They have disengaged from your session.

I feel like it's one of these ones again that's just logically so obvious what answer they want.

But is more relevant than the Dubai..

Yeah.

Culture question.

Rage quitting the meeting.

Yeah. Cause in more than just Japan. But I would say in a lot of Asian speaking countries, closing your eyes or the demeanour is very different when learning, I've noticed, than like Eastern European or well, any European or even like South American.

I think we would require eye contact rather, or at least you're looking at the thing that I'm trying to explain. If you were closing your eyes, I'd be a bit confused.

Yes.

I'd be like, 'Are you paying attention?'.

Yes. Yes.

At least to Westerners. If I was interacting with other Australians and trying to explain something and they weren't looking at me, I'd be like, 'Hello?' (snapping fingers sound) Like, I'd do that to my kids.

Yeah.

Noah. Hello?

Yeah, I think there's deep respect, though, within a lot of Asian speaking countries. Probably more Japanese from my experience of teaching them in the way that they respond when I'm telling them a piece of information.

Yeah.

I think they they really like to show that you are the person that's giving worthy content and I'm worthy of listening.

Yeah.

Whereas I don't think I get that from other cultures, including mine.

Yeah. I don't really have enough experience, I think, with Japanese culture, to know, but I would imagine the answer they're trying to get at is number one though. They're concentrating and listening hard.

Definitely.

Okay. Yeah.

You are correct. Japanese people will often close their eyes to block out any visual stimulus when they need to listen intently. The other answers may also be correct, but don't make assumptions. Okay. So there should have been a fourth option of 'all of the above', that's what you're saying. That's interesting. You'll have to- if you're Japanese, you'll have to tell us. Is that true or is that BS?

Okay. You're spending a week visiting clients in around Latin America where you understand there is a more relaxed attitude to time. Jesus, are we going to have something to talk about here? When do you aim to arrive at your meetings? Oh, gosh. I'll have to phone Kel. A few minutes ahead of the scheduled time, just as you would at home. Within 5 minutes, within 5 to 10 minutes after the scheduled time. Anywhere up to half an hour late. Anywhere up to half an hour late as that is what you have experienced when these clients visited you at home.

Mm hmm. Umm, so I understand that it should be option C in this case. I think this one is really subjective though as well. Like everything that we're talking about is obviously just a general statement and each person's individual differences affect it massively. But I'm not very good at being early. I feel like being early is a waste.

Really?

Yeah.

Jesus Christ, man.

Yeah.

Disrespect. My culture would hate you.

I wouldn't say that Aussies get up early, but do you? I mean..

I'm personally pretty anal about punctual, punctuality, and being on time, but I don't think all Australians are necessarily like that. I can imagine there could be a decent argument made to say that Australians are very lax and that most don't give a shit about arriving on time or whatever. So, so..

Yeah.

But my family is definitely very punctual. So that was why I was raised that way.

Yeah.

My wife is not punctual.

I would challenge you to say that a couple of times when we've had meetings though. You've..

Yes.

You've missed them.

That- that wasn't because- that was more because I've forgotten. And then I've seen the reminder and I'm like, I can't get home in time. It's shit. And I've sent you a message and apologised profusely and been like, 'Yep, I'm an idiot.' And you've been like, 'Yep, yeah, you should've known better.'.

Yeah. But so when you arrange a meeting with a friend at the pub or even for dinner..

As you say, I think context based. But- so for instance, yeah, you and I having a meeting, you should be there on time. Like, on, at the time, probably before, right, like a minute or two before, just to make sure.

Okay.

At least I would usually show up 5 minutes early.

Okay.

So work related stuff. If it's something like a meal at a pub, I'll probably aim to be there on time. But if I'm five or 10 minutes late, shit happens. You know, I'm going to be less worried about being on time than I am with, like, a work engagement.

Yeah.

Um, and then anywhere up to half an hour late, I would say, as you're taking the piss, you know. Again, without, without telling me, like if you were late because you're stuck in traffic or someone, you know, broke your leg or, you know, something's happened and you caught up and you message me and let me know. That's fair enough. But if you were to just show up as if it was just a normal thing of like, 'Oh, I just show up half an hour late', like, 'I just don't give a shit about you and your time'. That would be a very, I would see that as massively disrespectful.

I remember I had that when I was single and using Tinder.

Ding Dong?

Hmm?

Ding Dong. Just Ding Dong, Ding Dong.

No, Tinder. I was- I was meeting, obviously, quite a few people to go on dates and there was one girl that showed up. I think she would have been like 45 minutes late, didn't message me, didn't tell me anything. I think I tried to be like, 'Are you still coming? Am I just sitting in by myself?'.

And she didn't come and go.

Well, no. It was just the the whole 'I'm on my way', you know, but didn't tell me like 'I'm stuck, I'll be this long', whatever. And so I ended up waiting. It was like for 45 minutes and I was like, this person is meant to be on their best behaviour because this is the first date, right? Like you would imagine you're..

Did you text her that?

No.

You're meant to be on your best behaviour..

.. but you would imagine, right? It's your first date. You're going to be putting your front foot forward and being as attractive as you can, as nice as you can, as, you know..

Eat as loudly as you can.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Just (farting sounds) in front of them. Again, reference to the first episode on Charlie's channel. But yeah, I would imagine you'd be, you know, this is the best it's going to get. It's- in terms of punctuality and everything. This- if this person is showing up 45 minutes late on a first date, what are they going to be like in a relationship after a year, two years, ten years? Right. It's not going to get better. It's not like they get more punctual with time.

Ah, they could, too.

Yeah. If you slap them a bit, you know. Nah, I'm joking. I'm joking. But yeah, if you, if you were to maybe, you know, give them a bit of the stick instead of the carrot and punish them for the, the disrespect. But I don't imagine that. Yeah, I don't know. I saw it as a very like irritating thing that I wouldn't do it at other people.

So tell me what your wife is like.

Well, she's Brazilian, so she shows up late. All the time.

Okay.

Let's see. We'll give her a call. We did this on Charlie's episode, so we had to phone a friend and let's see what Kel says. I could just invite her into the room, but it wouldn't be as funny. (phone dialing sound) Is she gonna answer? She's going to be asleep. (phone dialing sound) It's going to be embarrassing if she doesn't pick up. (The person you're calling is not available) God dammit, Kelly. Okay, I guess she's. She's she's having a rest. No. So I think broadly speaking, and again, it's a stereotype, but Brazilians are very relaxed with time and tend to show up late, especially for parties and stuff.

For meetings, they may be on time, you know, like you would imagine for business, right? Business runs on time, but for like casual stuff, they will definitely be late. And we have this problem all the time with friends where they'll say they're coming at lunch time and they show up at 3 p.m. and you're just like, 'Are you taking the piss?'.

Have you actually experienced that?

Yes. Yes. Many times.

I've never had any three hour gap.

Many times.

Really?

Yeah, but.

... then you're gone, you...

No. Well, you'll be at home. We'll be waiting for them to come here to cook lunch. So they'll be like, okay, we've cooked all this food, we're bringing it over, we'll have it for lunch and they'll show up at three.

Right.

And I mean, you might get a few messages saying, you know, and you find out, okay, it's going to be three. So I have to be like, I've got to go out and get some food. I need lunch. This is afternoon tea. This is no longer lunch.

Yeah.

So it's that sort of thing. But I think the justification is from Kels point of view as a Brazilian, that showing up early is seen as being really keen and eager, and a weird.

Aha.

So if you have a party and you're- no one wants to be the first to arrive.

Yeah...

I think. And so it's become this cultural competition of.

Oh, interesting.

So I think what happens is that in Brazil you have a party, and every single person is out the front, sitting in their cars for at least an hour.

Is that-.

Waiting for the first-.

Is that true!?

I- I'm being- I'm joking. But I think that- I can imagine that in my head of, like, everyone just lined up out the front, waiting for the first idiots to snap and be like, 'We're hungry, we're going in'. And then everyone else gets out of their cars and is like, 'Yay, we're not the first to the party.' Like, that 'We're normal!'

That's so funny. Yeah. Yeah. I think being early is a big no-no for me personally.

Really?!

Yeah, I- I-

Jesus!

Because I want. I'm.

.. so people to be at the party.

No, I'm talking about if I'm hosting, I don't want anyone coming early because I'm preparing all the way up until the time that I said I'm available to host.

Yeah.

So if you come 10 minutes early, I've lost 10 minutes of prepping time.

Well, I guess it would be one of those things where you would expect to potentially be there early and then knock on the door on time.

Yeah.

Like if I showed, I wouldn't show up an hour early to someone's birthday party and then be like, 'Where's the food?', you know? But I might show up early if the expectation was that I was there to help, or that I could help.

Yeah.

I'd be like, Oh, I just came over. Like, again, you're going to have those sorts of conversations with people that know if it's okay.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, 'Are you having a party on the weekend? I'll pop over and you know, if you need a hand, I'll give you a hand', and you show up early and you give them a hand, and it's not a big deal. But yeah, if you were showing up and like, 'Where's the fucking food?', you know, you'd be like, 'Okay, dude, chill out.' 'That rude', you know, 'wait out the front, sit on the kerb outside and you can come in only after the last guest has entered and there won't be no more food.'.

I like that though. The the mindset of a potentially generalised Brazilian of not wanting to show up to be too keen. I like that.

Yeah.

It's interesting.

I think we got it wrong. So at least I put in anywhere up to half an hour late. The answer, apparently here, the correct one is a few minutes ahead of the scheduled time, just as you would at home. Wow.

What?!

Okay. So early.

Can-

You are spending a week visiting clients around Latin America where you understand that it is more relaxed attitude to time. When do you arrive at your meetings? A few minutes ahead of the scheduled time, just as you would at home. I don't understand the context of the question with being more relaxed.

Okay. So there- I think what this quiz is, it's trying to inform business.

Yeah.

Businessmen, business people, of how to best deal with cultural difference.

Yeah.

And to be fair, you shouldn't. And you shouldn't assume that their culture is relaxed so you can be relaxed.

Oh, I would never do that, right. Like, I think if I was in Brazil, I'd still be a weirdo showing up on time. No matter what the event was.

I'd always. And I'd make it a joke. Yeah, that's it. Desperate. I, I'd stop making it a joke and probably going to everyone's birthday parties and trying to show up an hour early just to troll them. Be like, 'Hi, me again! Need any help? Any food?' I think it would definitely become a running joke.

Yeah.

Okay. Um, what do you understand by ethnocentrism? Ethnocentrism. Ethnocentrism. Okay, and there's options here. Operating in an environment where everyone is from the same culture. Judging people from another culture only by the values and standards of your own culture. Experience your- it's so weird when they do this, when they use like 'operating judging experience', you should be using 'experiencing' so that's consistent.

Experience your own and other cultures as relative to the context.

Ethnocentrism and..

Ethnocentrism.

Ethnocentrism, I would guess, is option three.

Experience your own and other cultures as relative to the context. I would have thought if you're ethnically centric, yeah. You would be thinking about whatever that specific culture is yours. So maybe one, operating in an environment where everyone is from the same culture, judging others from- yeah, this is sort of a confusing one.

So how do you reckon you could use it? Are you saying like, 'Oh, stop being so ethnocentric.'.

I feel- well it's when you're centring around a specific ethnicity, right?

Yeah, that kinda makes sense.

That may not be your own, but it could be someone else's. So.. but I feel like it's where you're potentially paying too much attention to one as opposed to taking into account the other. So maybe it is judging people from another culture only by your own values and standards?

Hmm. I thought they were kind of making up a fancy term for being culturally-aware. Ethnocentrism.

I feel like it's the inverse of culturally-aware.

Okay. Yeah. Okay. I'm on board with you now.

Okay. We're number two, judging people from another culture only by the values and standards of your own culture.

Let's go with that.

We'll get it right. Ethnocentrism is the way we see our own culture as central to reality, and we judge other cultures as being inferior or abnormal.

So like thinking that the sun revolves around the planet. Like, as in.

Is that like, um, planet-centric or whatever it is?

Yeah.

Yeah. Guess so. It is weird though. I feel like the West is getting less and less ethnocentric and becoming more of self-hating right? Like, we see ourselves as inferior or abnormal quite often, and sort of fetish-ise the foreign and other cultures as being, you know, better, or more unique, more interesting. It's an interesting sort of phenomenon that I think I've noticed since I was younger, at least, you know, in the last 20 years.

Yeah. And certainly going to a far off land, it would never really be the opposite. Like, you would absolutely have to blend in as a, as an Aussie or a Brit.

I didn't- I kind of imagine going anywhere and expecting everyone to go out of their way to fit and suit me and my needs culturally. Like I can imagine going somewhere and being uncomfortable because I wasn't used to the food or the culture and trying to get used to it and adapting. But I can't imagine having the expectation that other people in their home country and culture should be bending over backwards to serve me and make me comfortable.

No.

I just- as a Westerner, I feel like I would be happy if they were like, Oh, look, we know you say. A good example was like in Indonesia. We went there and they, in a lot of places, they don't have toilet paper, they use water.

Yeah.

And that made me, as a westerner, very uncomfortable. I didn't really know how to use it. I was sort of confused. It was like a little ladle that you would sort of have in a bucket of water next to the hole in the ground. And-

What you do is you put the ladle over your head.

That's it! After you're done-

And then you get it, another tool down your spine.

Yeah.

And then?

So every time you go to the bathroom, you have to have a shower.

Yeah.

Yeah. No, I don't think that's how they do it. But I remember being like, this is not their responsibility to make me feel comfortable.

Like, I didn't get angry at anyone or 'Where's the toilet paper? Where's the proper toilet?' You know, I never expected other people to change the way that their homes were set up to suit me. Instead, I brought toilet paper with me, or I look for a certain place that I could go where it was going and make me comfortable. But I was never expecting others to go out of their way for me.

Yes. Yeah. Although we probably should state that, you know, the generations before us probably did the absolute opposite. Horrendous.

But I think that's why we feel the way we do now. Right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The pendulum. The pendulum has swung.

Yeah. Okay. You are preparing for the lunch meeting of a new international project team. How are you planning to run the meeting? One, to present the team with clear objectives, a detailed plan, and make clear your expectations about how the team will work together. Two, to listen and observe as you invite the team to introduce themselves and brainstorm how they would like to work together and create team ground rules. Or three, to ask team member- each team member to prepare a short presentation about their own experience and expertise and what they would like to achieve from working on the project. I feel like we are going down the rabbit hole of very, very business specific questions.

Really is. So I'm going to try and summarise.

Yeah.

Option one um, present the team with clear objectives, detailed plan. Okay. So tell them very clearly what you're going to do.

Yeah.

Option two, let everyone think and have a little communica- communicative teamwork.

Yeah.

And then number three, everyone else presents.

Yeah, I. I don't know. This is a weird one. I feel like all of them could have arguments made for them.

You are preparing for the launch meeting of a new international project team. How are you planning to run the meeting?

Maybe three? Where you get everyone to talk about their expertise? If it's a new project, and you want everyone to get to know one another. Maybe you would be like, 'Guys, introduce yourselves and tell us what you're experts at.' But I feel like they could all- you can make an argument for all of them.

Erm. So you're running it?

Mm hmm?

I think option three.

Mm hmm.

I think option three. You take control of the meeting.

Mm hmm.

Like, facilitate. But you are still encouraging everybody to share their own opinions.

Yeah. I heard from Luke's English podcast, Luke. He was saying that in France, a meeting is very much obsessed about just everyone sharing their own opinions equally, even more so than in England, for example.

Interesting.

Um. Whereas in perhaps Japan, it's like the leader says, 'What is happening?'.

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And the people beneath that leader listen.

Mm hmm.

So yeah, maybe option three.

Let's see what it says. Do we get it right? Nah.

Incorrect!

Incorrect.

A launch meeting provides the option to listen and observe as you invite the team to introduce themselves and brainstorm how they would like to work together and create team ground rules.

Okay.

Hah! Yeah.

See? Yeah, that's why I think that could be an argument made for all of those.

Yeah. Why did we think 'To ask each team member to prepare a short presentation about their own experience and expertise'?

I guess so everyone gets to know one another, and what their backgrounds are. But..

Yeah.

Dunno.

And then it says, um. 'A launch meeting provides the opportunity to understand your team members and how they prefer to work, but also to establish team protocols and ground rules as a group.' Hmm. Okay. There we go. We've all learned something that..

I know. Hopefully the next one's a little more interesting. Oh, here we go. Humour across cultures is best avoided as some cultures have a different sense of humour, and some cultures don't really have a sense of humour. Okay? I would imagine every single culture has some kind of sense of humour. Best used only if you share the same language, otherwise humour is likely to get lost in translation. Not always. Lastly, a great way to break the ice, build rapport, providing you a careful about using complicated wordplay or cultural references that could be misunderstood.

That one sounds pretty good to me.

I know. I think number three is the goer, and we are correct. Humour can be a useful tool as long as you use it appropriately and don't make cultural- culturally insensitive jokes.

Yeah.

I think it's one of those things where you just have to be- you just have to be careful, but also you have to be given a bit of leeway that if you do accident, because a lot of the time we don't know what's culturally insensitive, which is the problem. Right? Like, which is why we're doing this quiz and we've gotten some of them wrong. Not everyone knows everything about every other culture. And so I think I would probably err on the side of making jokes, rather than not making jokes and use humour. Play with humour.

Obviously, you don't have to go into your boss's office and start telling sex jokes, but you know, you try and still be a bit humorous. But yeah, I also think if someone does make a joke that is perceived by you as culturally insensitive, try and understand the intention more so than immediately taking offence and getting angry. Because quite often people aren't trying to culturally vilify other people I think, especially at work.

Yeah. So you as a listener, you will always have a mindset of, like, forgiving and accepting what they're saying. Unless it's ridiculous.

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Nice.

What time have you got to ferry back?

4:00.

3:30.

Oh, my God.

Yeah, you better get going, mate.

Yeah.

This has been fun, though.

Thank you very much. Yeah. Lovely!

Thanks for hanging out, guys.

Yeah, thank you, guys.

See ya.