Transcript of AE 947 - Interview: How Australians Learn Languages with Bec & Penny from the Language Chats Podcast

G'day, you mob, and welcome to this episode of Aussie English. I am your host, Pete, and this is another episode of the Aussie English podcast where I have the incredible pleasure of interviewing today's guests, Rebecca Howie and Penelope Wilson from Language Lovers Australia and the Language Chats podcast.

Now, Bec and Pen recently got in contact with me and asked if I could be on their podcast so that, you know, they could pick my brains about what it's like teaching Australian English, as well as learning foreign languages like French and Portuguese. So, if you want to go and check that out, look up the podcast language chats and I believe it is Episode 45, if I'm not mistaken. So, go check that out, have a listen and subscribe to their podcast.

But in today's episode, I wanted to get them on my podcast to talk about what it's like being Australian, growing up in Australia and learning foreign languages. What's the experience like learning languages at schools, at university? And then what is it like trying to learn it on your own as an Aussie when, you know, a lot of the time we're surrounded by other Australians and it's hard to decide which language do you learn? Why do you learn it?

Everything like that. So, we cover a whole bunch of topics, including obviously the ones I've just covered. We talk about how to stay motivated, how to stay disciplined, how to stay on track, how to get out of the intermediate plateau, how to choose good TV series, everything like that. So, without any further ado, guys, smack the bird and let's get into this episode.

G'day, you mob. Welcome to this episode of Aussie English. Today I have special guests Bec and Penny from the Language Lovers Australia podcast. Bec and Penny, welcome to the podcast. How are you going?

Thanks, Pete. Nice to be here.

Thanks, Pete. Good to be here.

A bit of a delay. We've been battling the internet trolls and demons, I think tonight haven't we guys, so we'll see how we go. And I should mention straight ahead, I've got a lozenger in my mouth, so I'm really hoping there's no sounds coming through. But it's because I've lost my voice for the last two weeks. We had to reschedule, but we are here now.

So, guys, can we start off by you telling us a little bit about yourselves, obviously, and language lovers Australia and how it got started?

Well, we met at the beginning of 2018, we met online actually through a language conference, Bec was presenting, and I was at home watching on my computer and I saw this other woman presenting, I'm like, hey, she's from Melbourne. I need to connect with her.

So, we eventually arranged to catch up in person and we discovered we both have a love for learning languages, and we just chatted and got on and we decided to bring together other people that love learning languages here in Australia. And that's how we came up with the idea for language lovers AU.

So, we pretty much just started to get people- Well, initially just to get people together online, and we opened up a Facebook group which is still there, very- Still quite active. It's the language lovers AU community.

And we just sort of thought, well, let's just see whether there are some other people who want to like chat language and are interested in, you know, sharing a little bit about what they're doing and what they're learning and whether they've got any resources or interesting things just to share about what's happening with languages in Australia. So, we started it there and then we started-.

Well, two things, I guess kinda round about the same time. We started organising a few like, little in-person catch ups and some little in-person events just to get some language lovers into physically the same places. Obviously, that's changed a little bit with everything that's happened in the last 18 months.

But then we also started our podcast, which is called Language Chats, and that was also just to help share some stories of both our own experiences, but also of other Australians and a few international guests as well.

But other people who were working with languages, learning languages just to kind of, I guess, open up the world a little bit here in Australia to show that there are other Australians who are interested in languages other than English and that they're interested in learning them and they're interested in doing things with them and interested in communicating with them.

So, what was your- For both of you? We can start with you, Penny. What was your sort of background growing up with learning languages? I think we spoke about this on your podcast. So, quick plug for that, guys. Go and check it out where these guys interviewed me. But we were talking about, obviously, my experience going through school and learning different languages. What was it like for you, Penny?

Well, I started off learning French and Japanese in school, and I really took a liking to Japanese, and I can't really work out why, but I, yeah, took Japanese right through to year 12 and on to Uni as well. And I was lucky enough to spend a year living in Vietnam after high school. And I really fell in love with Vietnamese and Vietnam and the whole country.

So, I ended up doing a languages degree with Japanese and Vietnamese and...

Oh, wow.

...as well, which is not my strong point. And then, you know, after graduating and then going, what the hell am I going to do with my language's degree? I spent some more time abroad back in Vietnam and I thought tourism was what I wanted to end up doing. So, I came back to Uni and did a Masters of tourism, then ended up working in tourism for years and never got to use my languages until I left tourism and worked in wine.

And I worked for a boss who spoke really good Mandarin Chinese, and I decided that was going to be my next language challenge. So, I took off to China and...

Just hard mode. So, out of those three, which is the easiest?

Oh, God.

I would imagine you'd say Vietnamese, because at least they use- What would you call it? Like Latin based alphabet, right.

Yeah. Well, that is a huge bonus for Vietnamese. The pronunciation of it... ...brutal, though. But then Japanese pronunciation's awesome, but, you know, the alphabets and the characters is hardcore and the grammar. Chinese grammar is a lot easier, but the characters are just insane. So, I don't know. It depends, ask me on different days I'll probably have different answers.

I always wondered that and sorry Bec, we'll get to you as well. I always wondered with Chinese how they sound out words, like do you just come across words that you're reading a book and there's no way of really knowing how they're said, like you might have hints from the shape of the character from my memory of year 8 to year 11, Chinese, Mandarin Chinese.

But I always wondered, like because we can at least sound the word out when we see it and we might mispronounce it, but we'll be like, oh, okay, I can hear what I'm meant to be- What it's meant to mean. But with Mandarin Chinese, it's not that way, right? Yeah.

So, I think, you know, to read, you know, a simple book or article, you need to know a couple of thousand characters because you're going to come across words that you've never seen before. And like you said, there's no real way of deducing what that word is unless you've got a sense of what you can see in the character. So, yeah, lot of rote learning and practise, and yeah.

It was funny, I remember getting going through Portuguese after French, learning those two languages. And French is sort of like English where the spelling's kind of all over the place with pronunciation. So, there's no real shortcuts, but with Portuguese it's pretty much phonetic. And I remember asking my wife, do you guys have like problems like with kids pronouncing things and, you know, sounding words out?

And she's like, no. And I was like, man, that was the bane of our existence going through high school and having to do spelling tests because of the damn schwa that we use in English. So, the schwa can replace any vowel sound in English. And so, a lot of the time, like I remember, I probably didn't even learn how to spell independent, you know, with I think all E's, right.

There's no A's in there or O's in there until I was probably 23 years old. So, it was just funny that that was such a unique thing to English that I never realised until I started learning foreign languages. But what about you Bec? How did you go through school learning languages here in Australia?

So, I'm almost the opposite of Penny from the- Like at the start. So, I also did French and then some Japanese later, but I ended up gravitating to French, so I had quite luckily French through basically my entire schooling. That was the language that we started with at, you know, five years old, and then Japanese and Indonesian got introduced later, but I sort of stuck with Japanese as my second language, did that for a few years.

And then I was like, nah, I think I'm going- Hey, I think I'm going to stick with French. And I really enjoyed it. I sort of- As I started to learn more- So, I had actually like in primary school, I hated French, I just thought it was stupid and useless and I was sick of learning like pencil, rubber and ruler over and over again every year. I was so bored.

And then in year 7, we like for the very first time learnt two verbs, we learnt "to have" and "to be". And I felt like this world just like opened up to me, I realised that I could formulate an actual sentence on its own.

And kind of from there I started to get really interested because I realised that I could use this other language to say the same things that I wanted to say in English, but it was almost like speaking in another code or something, you know, the same thing again. And so, that for me, was a really exciting time.

And I, yeah, continued on with French and then did a diploma in French at Uni as well, kind of alongside my main studies, which were completely unrelated and not at all to do with languages. I studied engineering just the opposite end of the scale.

You and I sound like we're in the same boat. I went through high school doing French, and then went to Uni and did the diploma on the side and failed it because I just hated how French was taught at the university, and I just- I didn't go to the exams and I got a 45 on one of them and I was like, damn, I should have just gone and written my name on the exam and I would have passed that subject.

Well, it's funny because like definitely for me, like now I look back on the years that I did French at Uni and actually I don't think I realised this at the time, but I now realised that it was so important that actually I kept doing some language study when I was at uni. That wasn't all of the other really, to be honest, like really mathsy, very technical kind of learning that I had to do.

I really needed that other part of my brain still working and functioning.

Just like a break, right?

And- So, I'm quite like- Yeah, exactly. I'm quite grateful for that, even though the actual content of those subjects was sometimes really like, really academic and very often really literature based. Sometimes they were cultural subjects that like they were not always the most engaging content, really...

Did you, based on...

...It did kind of mean that I had a good reason to continue with it.

Based on that, did you go to Melbourne University? Yeah.

I did.

I knew that as soon as you said engineering and a side diploma in French because I was- That's where I was and I was doing it in biology and a side diploma in French, so. But I remember the same problems I had, I frigging hated learning literature from, you know, the eighteen hundreds in French. I was like, I just want to be able to speak to people.

All I want to do is get good enough to be able to speak to people, and I'm like, I don't want to learn about all these old poems and this old literature stuff, I just want to be able to speak, but they were like, it's a mandatory subject. So, I'm impressed you stuck with it, though. Awesome. All right. So, how did you find the teaching... We've got some delay. It's okay, do you want to kill your video and see if that makes a...

I'm so sorry, I feel like it's my Internet.

Man, you don't know how many times I've been on this end.

Yeah, let's kill my video.

All right. Can you hear me now?

So bad.

That's better Bec.

Yeah, I've just turned off my video, so hopefully- Is it? Okay, great. Let's keep it that way then. I'm so sorry.

...No, don't be silly...

It must be because it's- Maybe because it's like peak, as well, like I don't know if everyone's just like streaming Netflix.

Yeah. So, how did you guys find the teaching of languages at high school, too? Because this is one of those things that I think once you get into the polyglot community, you hear a lot about people ragging on how languages are taught in all schools. But at least from personal experience, I found that the classrooms in Australia tended to be really bad in terms of motivating students and catering to the way that they learn languages.

So, what was your sort of experience with that through high school? Did you have great teachers, horrible teachers? Was it motivating?

I think for me, it was a bit up and down because I think Bec was talking about this before as well, that I think where there's a problem in Australia is we don't seem to have like a continuity thing, right. You know, not every kid in every school will learn the same language, so if you move schools or move cities, then you've got to start from scratch.

So, I felt like we were repeating a lot of stuff, a lot of stuff time was spent on the basic parts of the language. But for me, I just found the Japanese side of things, I just really loved it because it was so different, and I think that's what was appealing. So, I probably didn't care whether the teaching was bad or not. And I got to go to Japan on a little exchange, that was- It was a nice treat as well.

And what about you, Bec?

Yeah, for me I, again, probably a little bit up and down here and there, but overall, I had quite a positive experience with learning- Well, with learning both French and Japanese at school. But I really, like I enjoyed it, I think I was an engaged student. Like, I could kind of see that I was getting something out of the learning and so that kind of made me want to search out other things on my own.

And I think that, like, as I sort of, you know, by the time I got into about 15 or 16 years old, like I was outside of the classroom looking for more. And then, you know, when you've got encouraging teachers who kind of, you know, can see that you are already interested, then sometimes they start to give you a little extra, because they can see that you're going to take it somewhere and that you want to go further with it.

So, like, I think broadly, I had a really positive experience. But I can- I know exactly what you mean, because I think that, you know, if I think about the experiences of some of my peers, some of my friends, you know, they would probably say that it was very, very different.

Yeah, it was always weird for me, at least I remember seeing a few students and they would come in and do these classes and sometimes the teachers would just be like, Carl, I don't know why you're here, you know, you're not good at languages. And it would just be like, why would you say that to the dude? You don't know what he's, you know, he speaks English. So, it just seemed to be a very weird sort of environment.

But I went to a pretty snobby sort of school, so I don't know, maybe it was just what it was like there. But yeah, so could you give us a background, Pen, on what it's like in Australia with language learning as a whole? Are you likely to meet many people who are bi or trilingual out and about, or is it a bit of a rarity?

I think we're lucky enough we get to meet people who are bilingual and trilingual all the time, but I'm not sure that it's celebrated, like maybe it should be. And I think maybe in Australia, we have this tendency to overlook people's heritage languages or how they grew up in a multilingual environment at home. And we perhaps don't give that enough credit. And then I think- Yeah, I don't know if we talk about language learning that much in Australia.

Maybe that's just me, but that's kind of- That's kind of how I feel.

Yeah, I agree. I think it's always been a bit of a struggle. Well, for schools, for teachers, for really anyone to make sure that languages are a priority, you know, it's very, I guess despite the fact that, yeah, like many, many, many people in Australia speak another language, maybe more than just one other language.

We live in a very English focused society, and as Penny said, it's more like, you know, wouldn't it be great if we could celebrate even more and show that it's normal in Australia for people to speak more than one language? Because I think that's what- Even though actually so many people do speak another language, we don't talk about that all that often.

What do you think that is? Is it a- Is it related to the amount of migration that we've had of people from everywhere? And there isn't just one huge group of people who speak one other language that we can just say, you know, like if the indigenous people in Australia all spoke a single dialect of, you know, the indigenous language, I think that would be- It would be a completely different story, right.

Because we would all be learning that at school, we would be holding it up, but the problem is that we have over 260 languages or something here when the first fleet arrived. So, there is no single indigenous language that any group can, or any school can really teach that isn't just the local tribe.

Yeah, I think like look, personally, I feel like there's so much beauty and diversity, I don't actually think that it's necessarily about what you necessarily put forward in front of people, like the language, there doesn't need to be a dominant.

Just even having the awareness that, like other people around you can feel comfortable sharing that they speak another language, that they can, you know, speak another language with their family in public and for that to be totally normal.

For me, that is what's important, it's actually just the awareness and feeling like, yeah, you know, maybe wherever it is that you work or whatever school you go to or wherever it is that you study, just thinking like, well, yeah, like English is a common language for all of us. But I'm well aware that there are a bunch of other people around me who speak other languages and that they're comfortable doing that and that's a part of their lives.

I love it. I speak Portuguese every time I go out with my family. And it's so interesting to see the looks on people's faces, especially when I switch between the two languages and they'll hear me with an Australian accent and then be like, wait, what.

But the cool thing is that a lot of the time I notice this and it's funny, depending on which side of the fence you are, because I'm Australian, I love when people get curious about what we're speaking, you know, which language we're speaking, what we're saying. So, especially it seems like older women tend to be the more curious and willing to ask. They'll be like, oh, what language are you speaking, you know, with your son and your wife there?

And we'll get into this conversation about, oh, my wife's from Brazil and we're raising our kid to be bilingual. And the cute thing that I notice a lot of the time is that they'll often say, how do I say hello? Or how do I say good bye to you guys? And when we leave a cafe or something, they'll say, you know, tchau, tchau, até proxima, like until next time. They'll want to learn something, so they're curious.

But on the other side of the fence, my wife will always be like, these nosy people want to know where I'm from and make me feel like I'm, you know, not Australian and I'm like, no, that's not what they're trying to do. Right. They're just curious. Like, it is funny, depending on which side of the fence you sit.

So, have you noticed that at all or do you find that there is this sort of stereotype that seems to be thrown around a lot of the time that Australians don't really like, you know, people speaking foreign languages or are sort of wary?

I think there's a, yeah, definite curiosity. I love it as well. I think that's a really cool story, and I think it's great if people ask or approach and find out a bit more about what you're saying, where you're from all that kind of thing, as long as- I guess as long as the person receiving that interaction is happy for it to take place. But yeah, that's been, I guess my experience as well.

But I think it might come down to like where you are in Australia, too, that might have a...

Very true.

...A bearing on that.

Yeah, absolutely, as people who have- I think all three of us have spent lots of time in Melbourne. You know, Melbourne is a- We have lots of people from many different cultures. There are lots of languages floating around. And so, you know, in some ways, people probably here are very used to that kind of, you know, society and in lots of other places, maybe that's just less so.

But I do think people increasingly over time, especially over, you know, in the last- Especially the last, like probably 30 or 40 years, I think the openness of people towards other cultures and other languages has gotten significantly greater. And that is- That is a really positive thing.

Yeah, I always found that, it's interesting when you see the media tends to skew things a lot of the time, particularly with the sort of stereotype of Australia being really racist. And then on the other side, like I've got, you know, a whole listenership and viewership of people who have actively chosen to migrate to Australia. And you would think if it was such a racist place, there would be no one interested in doing it.

And so, it's always interesting seeing how those two things don't really jive with one another. But I do- The media does affect how we see ourselves, I think, as the Australians that have grown up here a lot of the time. So, I don't know. It's just interesting that I've noticed that in the past, and I'll chat to my viewers and listeners, and they'll be like, this place isn't anywhere near as racist as where I came from.

Like, what are you talking about? I haven't experienced that or this or, you know. People tend to be curious and really interested and for the most part, yeah, pretty accepting.

Yeah, I guess sometimes the negative voices can be very loud, you know, like they're- Sometimes when people have a particularly- Sometimes people have racist views, it's like there actually not very many people. There's just a minority, but they are just particularly loud.

I'm still waiting for the moment that someone just says to me, you know, hey, in Australia mate we speak fucking English and I'll just switch from Portuguese and be like, what are you smoking, dude? Like I'm still, I'm almost wanting that to occur at some point just so that I can shock someone and be like, what are you talking about, mate?

That'd be good.

I know. So, what has it been like for you guys as obviously English native speakers learning foreign languages? I think we talked about this on your podcast and my views on this. But have you guys noticed, especially in the polyglot community where a lot of the really talented polyglots tend to not have English as their native language?

Have you noticed big differences between what it is to learn a foreign language when English is your native language versus when it's not?

Oh, good question. I don't know if I have noticed a difference with that, but I think a lot of the, I guess the language lover and language learner type people that we hang out with are also Aussie based. And then obviously there's a huge community online as well throughout the world of polyglots and multilingual people. And yeah, they come from all different countries and all different language backgrounds.

But I think, it's just a really accepting and welcoming community. I think, that's been my experience anyway.

Yeah, I agree with you, Penny. I think it's a very, very welcoming- This online community of people who are interested in languages is just a really, really welcoming place. And I have to say that, like it's- I feel like I say that like I'm surprised, I've known now for a long time that that is the case.

But I think, you know, when you've been watching videos on YouTube of like, you know, hyper-polyglots and people who speak lots of languages or whatever, it can feel really intimidating you kind of see these people with these like incredible skills and you're like, oh, my goodness, I could never be like that. Like, how could you speak so many languages and be so like proficient in all of them?

But the fact is that there are so many people who speak many languages, they are not like standing there looking down on everybody else, who can't speak as many languages as they can or like people who are monolingual. They're not, they're just encouraging everybody to be like, no, go ahead and try it, like you can learn how to speak another language, too.

And I think that's the real kind of beauty of that community. It's that there is- For the most part, there is no- There really isn't much judgement. People are just genuinely encouraging, and they want to kind of make sure that you feel encouraged as well and that you don't feel like you are being judged by native speakers or other people who just happen to have learnt 1 or 20 more languages than you. They're just like, hey, go for it. Like, good job.

I guess, though, what I was trying to get at is that there is- I feel like a lot of foreigners or a lot of people who speak a different language from English they've always had the obvious choice of, if I'm going to learn, if I'm going to pick up another language at school, if I'm going to learn another language, it'll be English. And when I learn English, or when I start learning English, it's always, I think pretty much-

I think it must be the case that across all languages and cultures, once you start learning things in English, there's going to be more TV shows, more music, more books, more literature, more Internet websites, so that you have way more content accessible to you in English.

And as a result, it's kind of like this acceleration that I found, at least with a few people that I've spoken to about this, where they were like, as soon as I started getting the basics of English, I was like, holy crap, there's so much content about the things that I'm really passionate about that have made English, learning English so much easier.

And then I'll tell them, I totally don't have that situation in Portuguese. Like I'm- As an English speaker, if I want to just, you know, read Harry Potter or watch the most popular TV shows or movies, granted, there are definitely some in Portuguese, in Brazilian Portuguese, but it's going down a funnel, right. Out of all of the content that is in English online and everything like that.

I have to now go really out of my way to try and find literature and books and, you know, interesting TV shows that might be blocked on Netflix that I can't find in the Australian Netflix that I have to download illegally or- So, it makes life a lot harder for me as an English speaker trying to learn a foreign language.

So, I was just wondering in that sort of respect, have you guys found it more difficult, you know, to pick up the foreign languages that you've been working on, or has it been a completely different experience for you guys?

I think for me, it- So, it entirely depends on the language, and I kind of, I think that actually, whether it's- It doesn't matter what language it is, once you have learnt a second language or once you have started learning and, you know, made some real progress with learning a second language, everything does get a little bit better from there.

So, like, whether that is English, if you're not an English native speaker or whether that is another language, if you are an English native speaker, like us, it's actually just taking that first step out of your native language, that is the first part. So, like, that's once you realise that like this is possible, I can do this. It's actually not as completely like terrifying as I thought it might have been in the first place.

Like that's the first step to take. But then in terms of like finding content, finding resources and kind of being supported, I suppose, in that way with your learning. Like, look, I'm not sure of the exact numbers and like the actual level of content, but to be honest with something like- Like, I'm still actively learning German...

I think, you mentioned that you are learning Danish as well, right? And that was- That's obviously got very few speakers.

So, actually, yeah. So, I was going to say that that's probably a good contrast, right. So, I'm actively learning both of those languages at the moment, but I've been learning German for a lot longer than I have been learning Danish, I only started learning Danish earlier this year.

And the- There is a huge contrast between what I can find available online or elsewhere in German compared to what I can find available for me to listen, to watch, read, view in Danish, like the amount of stuff is just so much lower. And...

In Danish?

Yeah, in Danish, like it's just a whole other challenge, like a layer of challenge on actually learning languages and finding the kind of content that I want to be able to engage with.

I guess the added difficulty there too is that the Scandinavian languages, well, cultures and countries tend to have a reputation for being incredibly good at English from very young age, where they're effectively native speakers of it. And so, they just watch and consume all of the English stuff anyway, which, you know, probably undercuts a lot of the reasons that they would otherwise create their own content in Danish, right.

Like if you're an up-and-coming Danish filmmaker, you're going to be like, well, I speak English like a native, so I'm just going to do it in English.

Well, and yeah, look, you're probably right, but that's also not to say like it's just like there is less content, but there is content to be found.

Yeah.

So, like I suppose you just have to- Like with something like, so for English learners, it's really easy to find content. And you're right, like that is something that helps with people who are learning.

Well, this is where I get English envy, right. I'm always like, you guys have so much stuff to choose from, whereas I'm like searching the website, like, how do I find good Portuguese books, dammit. I ask my wife and she's like, I don't know, I read everything in English. Great.

100%

So, how's it been for you, Pen? Is it the same thing with Asian languages like Mandarin Chinese, Vietnamese and Japanese? Because I would imagine Japanese, and Chinese would have huge amounts of content for you to dive into.

Yeah, for sure. And I think it's a different challenge with maybe particularly Chinese is trying to find content that's really engaging or that's really interesting or things that I really, really, really want to watch and get into. Because, yeah, some of the stuff, like if you're into, like, you know, martial arts, or like cool, like, you know, historical kind of dramas.

I was going to say to you, is it possible to learn Japanese without liking anime?

Exactly, I know. And, you know, there's some kind of fun reality shows to watch as well and- But, you know, I think if you can find something that you like and then stick with it, then that's a good thing. And I mean, Vietnamese is a little bit different to this, they haven't really found that much stuff to watch in Vietnamese, to be honest. But I know it's out there.

So, I was going to say, too, Pete that there's this thing about like differences in motivations and drivers as well for language learners, and I feel like there's someone like me who is learning languages purely for, I guess for fun and as a hobby. And as something that I really love to do. And I'm not-

My driver is not because my husband or my in-laws are from China or that I'm, you know, moving to Vietnam next year for a job or for any of those kind of motivations that another learner might have. And I think that's, you know, it's a really kind of important underlying thing as well to look at.

Is that a gift and a curse in a way that it's kind of like you don't have really, really high stakes so that, you know, you're not going to suffer career-wise or anything like that if your Japanese doesn't get to, you know, B2 level or whatever by a certain amount of time?

But is it also a double-edged blade where your kind of like, well, I don't have that intrinsic motivation or sort of threat or fear that is going to push me to have to get to a certain level?

I think you're right. And I think, again, for someone like me who really likes that extrinsic, you know, push and renovation, that you have to kind of find it in other ways.

Yeah.

So, it's not for everyone, but I have done a couple of exams as well in the past to kind of keep me on track and to have a goal and a deadline to aim for.

Wow.

So, it's, yeah, I guess it's just ways of finding, you know, ways that work for you and, you know, it's funny because I'm not an exam person at all, but it's funny that that seems to work for me.

Well, I think I probably need to take a page out of your book, right or a leaf out of your book, because with Portuguese, I think I was talking about this with you, with you guys. But I think it was within the first year of learning with my wife I made 95% of my gains with the language and then after that, all the stuff that we talked about on a daily basis was pretty much covered and there was no real-

Unless we went out of our way to be like, okay, this news article's come up about this certain topic, you know, and it's really outside of our wheelhouse of comfort in either language. So, we're going to have to try and work through this the hard way. Nothing new comes up unless we do that and so it's been really interesting, I think that's the kind of-

It's sort of an equivalent to the intermediate plateau where I feel like for Portuguese and me, I feel like I'm proficient in the language, but I have all these sort of blind spots where I'm just not comfortable at all because I haven't spent any time there. But I need to find a way to force myself to get out of my comfort zone and to find time or to make time to actually go out and learn these things.

So, I probably should try and find a way of doing an exam or something. But Bec, do you have any sort of advice for staying motivated and to continuing to improve in these languages after a certain amount of time, you know, after-? Maybe you're stuck in that intermediate plateau.

Yeah. So, I think you've kind of always got to follow what you're interested in, right? Like, the more that you can do things that you want to talk about, things that you want to know more about, things that you want to learn the vocabulary for in the language that you're learning, the better your outcome is going to be. So, if you are, like whatever it is that you are interested in, whatever activities you like to do. Right.

Like, I love watching TV, I love TV, I just can't...

It seems like one of those things, though, right, where everyone loves TV. Show me one person who's like, I hate it.

Yeah, but like I really...

Bec really loves it.

...I really enjoy like watching TV and film. And I also- I particularly enjoy watching dramas. I like watching quite serious TV and, you know, I guess like subset of the very big TV universe. I really enjoy watching dramas. And for me that's the kind of content that gets me interested in a language. I will start watching a show and I'll be like, wow, I love this language that I'm hearing in this TV show. I love the way it's being used.

I'm interested in what they're talking about, especially if it's historical, like then I sort of get really quite interested, too. And that will be where I'm going, okay, well, I start looking things up and then I start having a little bit of dabble and then I start looking- And then I start looking up their specific vocabulary, but it's because I want to understand what the people in that TV show, in that episode are saying.

Like I want to be able to follow- Like, you know, I'll start- You'll start picking out some words here and there. And then I'm like, where are the gaps? Like, what...

I have an image here of you at night in bed with like all the lights off in the room and there's just the screen of the laptop, like lighting your face up and on the screen there's Netflix and there's Google Translate or, you know, another website open so that you can just put the words in. Am I right?

Yeah. Like, shocking, embarrassing, but like...

Man, I did that- I do that every night at the moment with Brazilian Netflix.

Yeah. Yeah. But it's so like, I think you've got to, you know, like, I mean that's one particular example. But I think if you, you know, if you're interested in whatever it might be, if you're special topic is K-Pop, you know, like people can get involved in a language purely because like-

Like what Penny was saying before about motivation and why you're learning, you know, I know that people have started learning Korean in the last few years because they just love K-Pop. They want to be able to understand all of the words to their favourite songs. I think that's such a cool reason to want to learn a language. Right. It's because you want to engage on a deeper level with something that interests you.

And, you know, the more that you can- The more that you can have that deeper feeling of being like, I know why I'm learning this, it's not just for-

I'm not learning something for the sake of it, I'm learning it because I want to be able to speak to more people about my favourite K-Pop band, or I'm learning English and I want to be able to improve my how I can speak at work with specific vocabulary because I need to be able to do that to get my next job or whatever. It's just having that quite specific thing in your mind that makes you want to say, I'm going to learn some more and that-

So, that you're not just feeling like completely demotivated all the time because otherwise, yeah, then you will just stop.

So, do you see it as really, really important to kind of find a reason to fall in love with the culture of the language or cultures of the language that you're learning, because I found that that's a very important part of, I guess, nailing your motivation down, too.

Yeah, 100%. I think, and once you've got that- Once you've got that idea in your mind about what it is that like kind of turns you on about that language, you know, you can start to develop your toolkit of resources that always make you feel interested.

And as things, you know, things will come into that and drop out of that box as time goes on, like you might be interested in a particular YouTuber or something who's like videos, you just really love watching. And that kind of gets you interested in their stuff for a while. But then, I don't know, they might stop making content, they might- You might just lose interest in their stuff, but you'll find something else.

And as long as you've got some options available to yourself all of the time, so that you don't just, you're not relying on one specific resource.

As long as you have a few things at your disposal that you know on a particular day, if you're not feeling resource number one, you can have a go at resource number two, and that will still mean that you are learning something, then that's kind of key, I think, having a little bit of a toolbox of useful resources at your disposal.

So, do you- Penny, do you have any advice, too, for what it's- What to do when you do sort of get, I guess, a bit bored and sick of things, and, you know, you just can't be bothered anymore? You feel like you're not getting any results. Are there certain tricks or tips or pieces of advice that you would have for how to keep going? Because I've heard things when I was doing martial arts a lot of the time, you know, people like, how do I stay motivated?

And they were like, motivation sucks, dude, just stay disciplined. You know, most people don't wake up wanting to go to the gym, but they know that that's the routine and what they need to do and then once they finish training at the gym or doing whatever, that's when they feel motivated because they feel good after the fact.

It's so hardcore, but it's kind of true, isn't it, that for me, because like I was saying, I do need to be kept on the straight and narrow, for me I have to schedule in whether it's italki classes or like a Zoom class with someone with a teacher or with a tutor. So, that it's in my calendar, I've paid for it. So, I actually have to turn up and be there, that's something that works really well for me.

Like I said before, registering for an exam that sometimes can be a really good motivator and just mixing up your routine. So- Excuse me. If you haven't been watching much TV or you haven't been doing much passive activities for a while, maybe just give yourself a break and just, you know, listen to some TV or podcast or radio without being really intentional about your learning and then, yeah, give yourself a break, I think every now and then.

I think that's really important.

Such a good tip.

I feel like when we were talking about finding the motivation that there's sort of this- I keep seeing this image in my head of, I watched a documentary recently about arranged marriages. Don't know how I got there, thank YouTube. And, you know, that this is a cultural practise in India, at- Well, it's cultural practise in a lot of different places, but this doco was set in India and it's for us in the West.

It's a very strange concept of this arranged marriage, but the thing that kind of got me in the doco was when they were sort of explaining that, well, love is kind of a luxury and it's short lived.

And when we organise these arranged marriages, the love comes later, you sort of find that, I guess it's sort of like the intrinsic motivation you discover later and you develop it and you build it over time, as opposed to hoping that, you know, you fall in love with someone at first sight and it's going to work from then on.

I feel like there's an analogy here between those sort of love at first sight and an arranged marriage with learning a language and then trying to be motivated, motivated at first say because you think the language is really cool versus having to dive in and try and learn more about the culture and find these other sort of more intrinsic, interesting things that sort of connect you to the language, that love develops over time.

So, do you sort of see where I'm coming from? What do you reckon?

I do. I- Yeah, I agree. And travel's always been a really important part of my life and has kind of guided my language learning and spurred me on to continue language learning and been a really good motivator for me. So, yeah, I definitely can feel that with what you're saying with that analogy as well, and it's really hard at the moment not having that as an option, as everyone around the world is in the same boat.

Traveling or arranged marriages?

Yeah. That's a really good analogy. I like that way of describing kind of a relationship that you might have with a language, because you're absolutely right, it can start from both of those places, it's not to say that the motivation has to be there right at the beginning. Sometimes you really just have to learn because, you know, you need it, you need that language to be able to move to another place.

Exactly. That tends to be the thing. We- I think the group of us here as English native speakers have that luxury of being like, oh, nice shiny thing, I want to learn that language. Whereas a lot of the people that are going to be listening to this podcast are probably like, well, I didn't inherently have any interest in English, but I bloody have to learn it because, you know, it's the world language.

Yeah. But the good thing, like- So, if you are in that position of not having the motivation- Your motivation at the beginning is that you just have to do it, it's something that's important for you because you're moving to another country or because you need, you know, need it for work or whatever. The good thing about any language is that you can always- Language is a mode of communication.

So, no matter where it is that you live, no matter what language it is that you speak, you can still experience all of the things that we have in life through whatever language it is that you speak comfortably.

And that means that when you are learning another language, you can also experience all of the fun things that you like to experience in your native language, in another language, too, you just have to be able to find those things and get to a point where you can enjoy them as well.

So, I suppose what I'm trying to say is that just because it might feel like a chore to begin with, it doesn't have to be because you should be able to still find all of the fun things that you enjoy in your native language through another language as well. You just have to know what those things are and then they should hopefully carry you the rest of the way.

I think you crushed it. Finishing up, I wanted to ask you guys if you have any good suggestions for Australian TV shows or movies, though, I have a fear that, like myself, you're probably going to be like, I don't watch Australian TV or movies?

Oh, there are some good ones. I don't know, like I mean, there are some classics...

I get asked this question so often and I'm always like, man, I'm on Netflix, either watching American stuff or Brazilian stuff. Like I'm totally out of the loop when it comes to Australian TV shows and movies.

There's always some good stuff on ABC, like iView you can always download some good shows on there. I watched one last year called Total Control, I really liked that with Rachel Griffiths in it as a political kind of show set in Canberra.

I think I saw the ad. Yeah; I think I saw the ads for this.

That was really good. And I really like the comedy, The Letdown as well. That one's about pregnancy and childbirth and motherhood and parenthood.

My wife's been watching that actually.

...I have to...

Yeah, there's a lot of options. I tend to point them towards iView as well, and I think I had someone ask the other day, how do I get Australian TV shows if I'm living in Turkey? And I was like, just buy a VPN and use iView because it's the- ABC is the- What is it? The Australian Broadcasting Commission and they just release all this stuff free on the Internet effectively.

So, if you can get an Australian IP address on your computer, you can access the website for free and watch the TV shows, and I think they all have subtitles, so.

I have to say, Bluey as well, Pete...

Oh, man.

...Great suggestion, too.

Oh, I've heard so many good things about Bluey, not- Being somebody that doesn't have kids, I have not gone out of my way to watch Bluey, but I- I feel like it's kind of the show of the moment.

It's pretty heart-warming, it's pretty heart-warming. Every single one of the episodes has sort of a deeper message under there and it gets you on the sweet spot. You're just like, UGH!

I also- I think my- Probably my recommendation for Australian- Well in this case it's a film that I'm going to recommend. But this is quite recent, the dry, which is a, you know, kind of a big- Well, I mean, not Hollywood, because it was filmed in Australia, but like a, you know, Hollywood style kind of film...

Eric Bana.

Eric Bana. Eric Bana. Yeah. Who is the star of that movie. And that only came out probably 6 months ago, I want to say. And I reckon that is the best Australian film I've seen in a long time, so I would really recommend it. And it's also quite a good view of Australia outside of a city, in admittedly a very small town...

Is this the film that's about the drought and how farmers are kind of struggling in the small town to deal with the drought?

That is an element of it, yes.

Yeah.

Yeah, but it's...

Murder, a crime show kind of.

Yeah, exactly. A bit of a murder mystery kind of whodunit, but very well done. It is a drama. It's serious. But...

I love the way you said that. It's serious.

It is. It's serious to say, like you're not going to get a comedy from this, like that's not what it is.

If you're laughing whilst watching The Dry, you have misunderstood what's going on.

Yeah. But it is- Look great film, really engaging and kind of an interesting, I think, view of Australia that's, you know, not necessarily the kind of beachy- The beachy Australia that people tend to think of, you know, as a stereotype.

Awesome, awesome, guys. Well, where can people find out more about you guys and the website you've got and the podcast you've got?

So, podcast-wise, you can just search for language chats in your podcast app, and language lovers is LanguageLovers.com.au, and Language Lovers AU on Facebook, and on Instagram languagelovers.AU.

Awesome. I should ask, I forgot to ask you guys. Before we go, what would you suggest is a way that we can get more Australians learning foreign languages?

Oh, million-dollar question.

That's a good one.

That is a really good question.

I think we've got to make it less serious. Less serious, it's all about the fun, take the pressure off. We don't need to be, if we're learning a language as a hobby, let's say let's make it more fun and not make fluency the end goal necessarily to make it more achievable and feel less scary.

Yep, I 100% agree with that. And I think that that's something that's really reflected in when people decide as an adult to start learning another language because of travel. Like, you know, people I think are very inspired, usually, not under the current circumstances. But normally people do tend to be very inspired by their travels to want to learn another language and I think that's because it is a really fun driven experience.

It's a real experience of getting into another place where you can, you know, use and see another language being used and you realise that you could potentially be a part of that as well. But that it's not about sitting down at a desk in front of a whiteboard and, you know, taking exams. It's just a fun communication experience with other people.

It's almost like it needs to be taken out of the classroom to some degree. Right. And people encouraged to go their own way.

Yeah, that's it.

Yeah. Totally.

Awesome. Bec and Pen, thanks so much for joining me. And obviously, they mentioned where you guys can find them. So, it's been a pleasure and I hope to have you guys on in the future. Thanks a lot.

Thanks heaps, Pete. Thanks for having us.

Thanks, Pete. It's been a pleasure.

All right, guys, massive thanks to Bec and Pen for coming on the podcast. Remember, you can check out their website, language lovers AU at languagelovers.com.au. And be sure to go and check out my episode on their podcast Language Chats episode number 45. So, guys, thank you so much for joining me. I'm Pete, this is Aussie English, and I will see you in the next episode. Peace.