Transcript of AE 1138 - Interview: Escaping Ukraine Before the Russian Invasion with Justin Hammond - Part 2

G'day, you mob. Welcome to this episode of Aussie English. I am your host, Pete Smissen, and today is part-two of my interview with Justin Hammond. If you didn't see the previous episode with him, go check that out before listening to this one. In today's episode, we talk about his experiences living in Ukraine and Russia and the cultural relationship between the two countries.

How he left Ukraine just before the Russian invasion and escape to Georgia. His thoughts on the ramp up to the invasion. How the war will change Ukraine and Ukrainian identity for the worse in the short term, but the better in the long term. What Ukrainian people thought of Zelenskyy before and then after the invasion. The discrimination against Russians who are against the war and have fled the country.

The power of Putin's propaganda in Russia in controlling the population and what they know and believe. And lastly, his expectations of how this invasion will end and the fallout from it. So, guys, without any further ado, I give you Justin Hammond.

So, all right. So, facing the elephant in the room, we haven't got to it yet, but I've been sort of interested in how you learnt Russian and everything. You were in Ukraine, right? When everything went down. So, were you- I guess, what was that like? What was that experience like?

You left the country and were you anticipating what happened? As someone who has been to Russia many times and sort of understands the culture and probably has experienced Putin quite a bit. Yeah.

So, yeah, good question. So, yeah, I was in Russia, and we started getting warnings from, you know, the allied governments over at the embassies they'd send you messages about, hey, there's a build-up going on, you should consider leaving or just take caution and all that kind of stuff. And that kind of started around mid-January.

Then reports started coming out, I think it was from like the CIA in the US saying that this would likely happen around mid-February based on how long they've had troops on the border. They couldn't economically finance keeping them there much longer past like mid-March. And so, what was interesting about it though, was just the general mentality of Ukrainians there and everybody, like nobody believed anything was going to happen.

And so, it was extremely business as usual. Like just nobody was doing anything, nobody was leaving. People were just going to the gym and the schools were running and everything like that. And so, I basically I left around like the 4th of February, 5th of February, for a week I went to Istanbul and to Turkey and whatnot, hung out with a friend.

But then as we kind of came up into like closer to mid-February area, I thought, well, you know what, I'll go back to Ukraine. I needed somewhere to go, but I'll go to the West, I'll go to Lviv.

You know, that way, if something happens, at least I'm like further west and it's safer and all that kind of stuff. So, I flew back into Lviv like the Saturday morning, the Saturday before the war, which started on Friday the 23rd, and like right after getting off the plane was more messages from the Canadian government, from the US and all the people saying like, you have to get out, get out as soon as possible.

They were saying even get out like before Sunday night if you could, and I've just flown back in. And so- And I booked a month on Airbnb and everything, so I had to get the refund for that. But what I found interesting was like, again, Ukrainians were also privy to this information and that Saturday morning when I flew in, I came out of this cafe while waiting for my Airbnb.

I remember like walking past this group of school kids and this lady being like, hey, I'm your tour guide, so we're going to show you around Lviv. Like, again, just everything was so business as usual, nobody believed anything. And even when I left and I had to get a refund for my Airbnb, my Airbnb host was like, oh, are you afraid? Like, it's just Putin playing his games and stuff like that. Nothing's going to happen.

We've been at war since 2014, you know, when the initial occupation of Crimea happened. And so, really, you know, the Ukrainian response was always like, we've been hearing this for eight years, right, this is nothing new. And I'm trying to say like, well, no 170,000 troops on your border is new.

But anyways, you know, and so this this kind of idea of like, I was considering staying just because I'm like, hey, if the war starts, it'll happen in the East. And then once it starts, then I'll leave. But then they started talking about how it would likely start with airstrikes similar to the way it did in Georgia, and which case it wouldn't matter where you are in the country, nor how far west you are, like it's not going to matter.

They were warning, like, you're likely going to have to shelter in place, lose access to Internet, potentially to food, everything like that. And I'm like, well, I didn't sign up for that. So, basically, yeah, with the airstrikes and everything. I thought, okay, whatever. I'll just I'll get out. And all the governments were telling people to get out. So, I went ahead and did that and came to Georgia.

But yeah, I left on- I think I left on the Monday morning. And basically, that Wednesday was February 16th, which is when the CIA had determined that Putin had told the Russian military to be ready to move. And so, basically flights for like that Monday, Tuesday to Istanbul went from like $150 to $650-$700. Right. Like they were just- Prices were skyrocketing.

You basically had to like rush to get something. Obviously, Airbnb prices are going up like crazy. And so, I just kind of looked at it and was like, yeah, to me, Georgia was like the cheapest flight I could find. And then- Or to Poland it was a bit cheaper, but then like the Airbnb's were jacked up more there and still at the time they were much less jacked up here in Georgia.

So, I end up getting, like finding a good Airbnb, paid a little bit more for the ticket to come to Georgia. And then yeah, I kind of got here on, like, that t- Yeah, the Monday or whatever. I came in like Monday at that night or the next morning on the Tuesday and then the war started on the Friday, like four days later.

How did you find out about it?

About the war?

Yeah. Like, did someone message you? Did you watch the news? And what was going through your head when that happened?

Oh, when I woke up and all the- So, the bonding started at like 5:30 in the morning, that Friday morning. And I woke up, going on Instagram and all the posts and everything that people, like, my friends filming it, like you could see the smoke from their balconies, they were in Kiev because Kiev got hit first. But I think there was also some other places in Kharkiv and Odessa.

But like people literally just like friends sending me videos where like filming from their balcony, you could see the smoke coming from wherever like the airstrikes hit. Then the pictures started coming in, right. And so, that I'm just kind of laying in bed. I woke up at like 7:30, just laying in bed, just kind of like going through like all the messages people are either sending or posting.

And then since then, it's just been like a non-stop every day of like everything from, like, murder videos to like, you know, to just like the dead bodies, to the buildings, to, you know, everything like that. So, it's kind of just like, pick your day, right? It's just crazy. And really everybody's reaction was like, we really didn't think this was going to happen and whatnot.

And what's sad about it is a lot of people couldn't leave or wouldn't leave because men aged 18 to 60 aren't allowed to leave Ukraine during the war. So, either families have left and left like their brother, husband or father behind, or others feel inclined to stay because they don't want to leave their father, brother or husband behind. So, they're stuck there as well.

Yeah, I've got a few- I created an episode, "Voices of Ukraine" and published that on the podcast recently, giving the sort of people in Ukraine a chance to talk about what they were experiencing on the ground.

And yeah, some of them, like I had sort of deeper conversations with, and they were- I was like, are you getting the fuck out? Like as much as I want Ukraine to win, and I know that a lot of people need to stay there and fight in order for that to happen.

Once you create a relationship with someone your kind of like, I just want you to be safe. Like, fuck staying there, just get out. You've got a child, you've got a wife, you've got old parents. And a lot of them are just like, I can't, I've got family here, I've got friends here, I have to protect my children. But yeah, a rock and a hard place. Like, talk about how hard it is. Yeah, it's just insane.

What was going through your head? When this happened and when you found out this news were you thinking, "I fucking knew Putin would do this"? Or were you like, "oh, man, I had no idea that was coming", you know? And yeah.

I thought there was definitely going to be an incursion, but not- I thought it was just going to be more contained to the east and more formalising. So, basically there was like the Luhansk and Donetsk areas, but then there's the actual region which extends a bit further beyond and that's what he essentially recognised the independence of a couple of days earlier.

Yeah.

And so, I just assumed it was going to be more of an incursion into those areas in order to formalise those territories for Russia, that they would have been fighting and it would have been contained on the east or whatnot. I wasn't expecting it to be- I wasn't really expecting like the whole airstrikes and everything like that, even though they said like if it starts, that's how it would happen.

So, I was kind of surprised about that, definitely. So, I think that part surprised me, but. I assumed it would have been more like just, I don't want to say casual, but yeah, just more of like sort of like a slow incursion into that eastern area to take the areas that they just, you know, recognised as sovereign.

Well, and the expectation, from what I understand, was that Putin and the Kremlin and his cronies around him thought that Zelenskyy was going to run off with his tail between his legs almost instantly. Right. And he was given the opportunity to leave for the US, I think, or at least to be evacuated by them. And I think- I loved his message, which was like, I don't need a ride, I need tanks, or I need ammo, I need weapons or something, right.

Effectively that. And so, what's your sort of conception of what's happened since and the way in which Zelenskyy has stood up and become this insane hero political figure, right, that every single person now is going to know his name? Right, like globally, you would imagine. Sort of on level with Churchill, you know, in World War Two.

Was that something that you were expecting? That the average Ukrainian was expecting to happen? Did they think much of him prior to current events? And what's your sort of feeling of what they think of him now? So, before he was more so popular with the younger generations.

The older generations is not as happy with him, but now people seem to be really supportive of them or whatnot. So, he's definitely won a huge amount of points politically and had he left, it would have been an overthrow. He wouldn't have been able to stay in power, he would have been overthrown. So, yeah, I think that he's done a great job with it, and I think that it was a bit of a risk assessment.

Like, I think that- I want to say that I don't think Russia was necessarily expecting the amount of military aid to come in through weapons and training and all that stuff that's been brought in. At the same time, though, they're also just weighing the pros and cons. They haven't sent all their troops. Russia could take it in like 24 hours if they wanted to. It would just be a matter of at what cost?

How many civilians do you kill? How many buildings do you destroy? But they have the firepower to literally just knock down every building and run it over. It's just a matter of, yeah, at what cost do they do it, right? And so, I think that's kind of what is probably the decision there and everything, so. Yeah, it's sort of a weird kind of environment I guess to be in.

I think that a lot of people certainly didn't expect something like us or to be in this sort of environment afterwards. And then the fallout from it, everything from Ukrainians being displaced to the discrimination that Russians are facing who have fled and come here to Georgia and to other countries or whatnot. Like, there is huge discrimination against regular Russians right now...

In Russia that support this stuff or in Ukraine or just everywhere or...?

So, like the discrimination against Russians who have fled from Russia to Georgia, who, for example, because they're cut off from the banks, because they don't support the war in Moscow and in other places in Russia as well, like the police can stop you and they're reading their phones.

I saw.

Yeah. So, there's a lot of people who, you know, are against the war and you basically can't go back to Russia anymore. Any foreign income that you have, you have to legally put it back into rubles, 80% of what you make has to be converted back into or you face 100% of a fine of what you made. You know, they basically at that point, they just steal your money.

And so, there's all these new laws that are coming out, like as of like March 1st and March 12th and all that stuff that is just like really hard core affecting, you know, Russians and stuff. And obviously that is in no comparison to what Ukrainians are experiencing.

It's just to point out that these consequences have not only affected Ukrainians, moving, expecting other people as well, and then especially the people that are against the war, like a lot of people are not yearning it and wanting to- But you can't say anything when you're there...

Yeah.

...Right...

Well, no, you face 15 years in jail, right, for mentioning it as a war or invasion or countering the message from the Kremlin publicly, so. And you know, from my understanding, you can obviously talk to this better than me, but the Russian police are not exactly the most sympathetic to dissidents, right? So...

I think that shows, like I think like the average human being is against killing other people. So, I think that really just shows the power of the propaganda. And you kind of understand, like, how the Nazis were able to do things that they did back in the day, especially when they had way less control.

They had control over the media and everything, but at the same time they didn't have Ukrainians and Westerners and all that stuff helping combat that. Right. So, you can kind of see just how powerful propaganda really is and how it works on people, and it's terrible in that way.

What was your understanding and experience of the relationship between the two countries prior to this and I guess the members of each country, how they viewed one another? There's been so much talk of what I at least believe is complete bullshit in terms of a Russian genocide in Ukraine and the place being just full of neo-Nazis who want to kill Russians, which seems to make no sense when they're both white. Right.

And the president of the country is a Jew who's...

(muffled) Exactly. So, and from the Ukrainians I've spoken to, they all seem to love Russians. They speak Russian, they're married to Russians, they have Russian family. What's your experience been when in both countries of how they view one another and how they connected or is it they hate each other? Like, what's your experience been personally?

Yeah. No, I would say, like, they all kind of consider themselves to be sort of related. Like Russians will say like, oh, it's all one people. Ukrainians will say, no, we're different. But they are- Everyone recognises the ties between it. Similarly, Canadians and Americans or I'm sure Australians and New Zealanders or whatever they're called...

Kiwi's.

Kiwi's, okay. Friends and family who live in the other country. And you know, like all these Russians are like, oh, like my background, my relatives are from Ukraine or like vice versa, where they're Ukrainian, but they're like, oh, my dad's from Moscow, but he lives in Ukraine.

And so, everybody has family like on both sides. And so, it's just really weird. And also, the division that that's created between families, right, where as for people in Ukraine being like, oh- Like my grandmother, she won't talk to me anymore because I'm trying to tell her, like, what's really going on. She doesn't believe it...

Oh, man, there was there was something on Reddit I read that there was a daughter trying to talk to her mum in Moscow and she was in Kiev and she's like, my mum doesn't believe me. I'm getting bombed by Russia and my mum thinks I'm lying. And you're like, what?

Yeah, it's terrible. It's the propaganda and you know. But that's how they do it, so. It hopefully will resolve, but.

What's it like when you're in Russia? Does the average person that you encounter just get spoon fed and swallow the Russian media propaganda? Or is it the kind of thing where they're not necessarily the majority, but a lot of people are afraid to say otherwise, especially publicly?

It's very generational, again, so the young people don't support Putin very often, especially one- Unless they're like kind of uneducated and not doing as well. So, anyone in bigger cities that's young generally doesn't support him, but anyone that's older typically does or whatnot.

And that's still the similar divide that you see now with things having happened between who is protesting against the war and who is fleeing versus who's supporting it and all that kind of stuff. I think it's something like 60% support the war in Russia when you look at the statistics, like it's the majority and it's because of that propaganda.

Well, and again, it's, I think it comes from Kremlin polls, right. Where your kind of like if someone from the Kremlin rings you up and says, do you support the war or do you support the special operation? What are you going to say? Like, are you going to be like, no, please don't call this house again? Take me off your register. So, what are you expecting happens ultimately as someone who is much closer-?

Well, you know, obviously not compared to a Russian, but as someone who's spent a lot of time there? And what are your fears for Russians, Ukrainians and even, you know, you as an outsider, as a Westerner who travels and wants to spend a lot of time there? What are your sort of fears of how this is going to play out and what it'll mean for the next, could be a generation or two, right?

Yeah. I think in terms of like going back to Russia, I think a lot of people that maybe had plans to are not going to. I think for even Russians themselves that are here in Georgia, they're talking about potentially 25,000 Russians permanently settling here now. And so, with myself, like I guess it depends on what happens with Ukraine and how that resolves and, you know, I don't know how that's going to end.

I can see a couple of different options and none of them are really great. I don't see any option being like Russia just simply backs out. Right. They're going to get something if they... (static) ...Whether it's recognition of those areas that were the Donetsk and Luhansk region, you know, whether it's essentially saying, okay, well, you leave the country, and we'll secede those territories to you.

But, you know, even then, and when they maybe guarantee that they would never join like the EU or something, but. Or NATO. But I think even then it's just, it's so hard to understand or to know, like what how that's going to end. And I think really like future plans kind of just depends on what goes on with that.

You were saying at the start, after I think you said 2008, Georgia was invaded by Russia, people stopped speaking Russian and stopped learning it. What do you see happening with Ukraine after this? Assuming that Ukraine comes out of this as a sovereign nation and isn't just absorbed back into Russia and what was the Soviet Union?

What do you think is going to happen with Ukrainian identity, the role of the Ukrainian language, how Russian will be perceived as a language in Ukraine, how Ukraine will be seen externally by the rest of the world?

Because I think loads of people had no idea where it was or what they- What language they spoke or anything about them prior to this happening. But now they do. What are your thoughts on how they're going to come out of this on the other side? Identity wise.

Yeah. Identity-wise is going to be that much stronger, 100%. In terms of how they handle the Russian language in Ukraine. It's hard to say because on one hand, the majority of people there, in my experience, unless you're from the West, still speak Russian as their first language, right, although they learn Ukrainian school.

You know, I'll talk to people and say, like, okay, but what if there's someone just got shot? And you have to call the police, it's a super stressful situation. What language is still going to be easier for you to speak? And it's usually it's Russian. That's not to say there's no exceptions. I do have friends where like Ukrainian is legitimately their first language.

But it seems like the majority of the population Russian is still their better language and that's not going to go away. I think that there would be a stronger push, even stronger than before towards using Ukrainian and not Russian, which is what they've been doing over the last several years in Ukraine, bringing in laws about not being allowed to use Russian in like government institutions.

That employed positions they have to start Ukrainian by law and then only if you speak Russian can they swap the Russian with you. I think that would be even stronger. But it also depends on, like, when I heard about potentially Ukrainian governments talking about seceding or sort of a resolution of the conflict that's going on.

I had heard that part of that would be not putting in laws that essentially discriminate against the Russian language.

Yeah.

So, who knows? Like, depending on how this whole resolution goes, those laws may even be reversed, you know, if that's the price that they have to pay in order to gain control back of the territories. So, I don't- It's hard to say. I feel like it really depends a lot on how that plays out.

Yeah, that's the saddest part, right? It seems like Russia's just doing everything it can to kind of steamroll Ukrainian identity in history and culture and everything like that, and just absorb them back into it and just make them effectively Russians, right. Whereas Ukrainians see themselves as having their own unique language and their own unique history.

Russia, at least Putin seems to want to just be like, no, you're part of us and we get everything. And so, it is going to be interesting to see how it plays out. Sorry.

Russian came from Ukrainian; Russia came from Ukraine. All everything there came from is Kiev in the beginning. So, like Kiev was the original, right, and Russia came from them. So, yeah.

I remember learning a bit about that when I was watching "Vikings" because I think they were talking about the king or the Tsar of Kiev in the year 800 or 900. Right. Where the Vikings- Ironically, I think, just what's the translation of Russia? Is that "river" or "canoe" or something like that and it's associated with Vikings and, you know, that they were Vikings in the past?

I have to dig into this a bit more. But I heard that there's quite a connection between the two historically and that, yeah, Russia obviously, the language wasn't that far east, right? You had Mongolia and all these other countries and different languages out there and then it just sort of got absorbed.

Yeah. Yeah. I actually don't know what the, like, Rus' would be. Like, R-U-S, Rus' would be like the core... (muffled) Yeah, I haven't thought about that. I mean it's not "river". I don't think it's "canoe", so...

Yeah. I wonder what I'm confusing there, but yeah, it is interesting. So, how do we finish on a positive note, man?

Yeah. I mean, I guess I just- Like, I'm hopeful overall that things will resolve. Whether or not they will, I don't know. I do think that it will have to resolve probably within the next month just because financially, again, between the ongoing and continuing sanctions against Russia and then the cost of supporting the war in Ukraine.

I just think it's too huge of a financial hit for them to take to just keep this going longer than a month. So, I think that's why they're starting to kind of do these talks and stuff. So, in terms of whatever way it plays out, I'm thinking within the next 30 days...

Do you think it's going to have a long-lasting effect on Russians and how they see themselves? I have spoken to a lot of Russians in Australia, and they are almost ashamed to mention the fact that they're Russian now, to speak Russian in public. I have a friend who teaches online, and he has his business and he's like, oh, the Russian students won't come to class anymore.

And you're just kind of like, this is just another angle where you're just like, fuck Putin. Like, talk about doing what was- What you view is best for you and fucking over, what, are almost 200 million people in the meantime in both countries. Like, the average Russian is now effectively fucked back in Russia and the average Ukrainian is currently doubly fucked.

Your kind of like, who is going to benefit from this? Especially- I think one of the heart-warming things that I've had is that I don't- I haven't heard of any Russians in Australia that I know of receiving discrimination from the average Australian, unless they were to come out and say they're pro-Kremlin, pro-Putin, happy the war is going on, fuck Ukraine.

If they were to say that sort of stuff, the average person would probably be like, you're a nutjob. Like that's- You sound like Hitler. But from what I understand, at least people seem to be able to separate Putin and the Kremlin and the Russian, you know, war machine from the average Russian.

Yeah. And the only reason it's different here in Georgia is because Georgia was attacked and occupied by Russia. And so, they see it as like what they went through, you know, X number of years ago. And then because of that, the massive protests that have come out and the Ukrainian flag being everywhere and then also the influx of both Ukrainians and Russians into the country and the consequences of that.

So, it's much more in their face and hitting close to home, if you will, that is sort of breeding that, you know, the discrimination against like the regular Russians who aren't supporting this.

Yeah, far out. Well, hopefully it ends soon and, yeah, we can get back to business because your kind of like- This is one of those funny things, right? I chat to Russians and, especially, I had a conversation with one who was in England. Right. And she was pro-Putin, pro the war, pro Russia, fuck the West and came out with the weirdest line for me, telling me that the West is going to fall apart because it celebrates gay people.

And I was kind of like, what? Where did that come from? So, I was just really surprised that there was someone who was obviously not living in the country and sort of benefiting from life in the West, but still very, very much pro-Russia and pro-Putin. It kind of really, really shocked me.

But fortunately for me, at least, the majority of the Russians that I interact with in Australia tend to be wide- Eyes wide open to what's actually going on. Have you experienced that kind of thing where you meet Russians abroad that are very sort of still very, very pro-Putin, pro-Russia?

Or do they tend to be much more eyes open global citizens, intellectual read into this sort of stuff, know how to sense make and everything? Because it seems like a lot of the smart people too are potentially going to leave Russia or have already left, right, which is going to lead to more problems, but.

Yeah. I've met people like that in the West, but they're the exception, not the rule. Generally, Russians are, you know, in the West living there, like, not pro-Putin or I would say like pro-Russia.

They usually recognise like it is my homeland and I always love it because of that. But you know, they went somewhere for a better life, and they recognise they have a better life. And there are a few people like you mentioned, but they're definitely the exception.

Yeah, that's good to know. Anyway, thanks for joining me, man. I really appreciate it. Where can people find out more about you and what you're currently doing? Are you still working in the English teaching realm, or have you ditched that, and you now have this, you know, high flying career in online business?

Yeah, I mean, like we still have the language still going or whatnot, but generally working on essentially like growth marketing and copywriting for SAS companies. So, it's the big focus. And yeah, it's going really well.

Brilliant. So, how can people find out about you and how can they find out your YouTube channel? Are you still smashing that out?

No, I'm actually kind of giving it up a little bit. And I found out just recently, as I think YouTube's no longer paying out channels who do content in Russian.

What?

And so...

Far out.

Yeah. Which is crazy. So, I actually have to check into that. I might not even be getting paid anymore.

How do they judge that, too? Do they just look at, okay, your contents in Russian and your audience is mainly Russian, therefore? Because what if you're- What if it's in Russian and you're in Australia to Australian-Russians or Russians who, you know, are elsewhere in the world? How do they gauge that?

...Right. I don't know how they do it. And I honestly haven't checked yet. I just found out this morning about this. So, I need to go and look to see if like I've been affected by it. But I imagine they just needed to like make a quick action. They probably put out like a blanket rule over like all channels matching this criteria with audience here. That would be my guess.

But even the Ukrainian bloggers who make content even about Ukraine, but they do it in Russian have like, have gotten blocked, like big ones. So, I'm guessing people just got caught up in this blanket and they're probably not using a lot of subjective reviews to kind of test who they need to block or whatnot.

Far out. Well, I hope it ends up okay, mate. I hope it's all good. And I hope to have you back on the podcast soon.

Excellent and thank you for having me.

See ya, mate.