Transcript of AE 1196 - Aussie vs American Business Culture & English

G'day, you mob! How's it going? Welcome to this episode of Aussie English. Today I have the pleasure of sitting down with CEO and host of All Ears English and the All Ears English podcast, Lindsay McMahon!

So Lindsay has recently launched a new business English podcast called Business English from All Ears English, as you will have probably noticed from the ads that we were running for a little while there. Go and check this out. But before you do that, have a listen to today's episode where we sit down and talk about cultural differences between American and Australian business.

So, what are the sort of differences that you would come across in Australia versus America? Are there differences in formality? There are differences in the kinds of language that would be used the different expressions, the slang terms, the jargon, everything like that. So I think it's a really good episode, guys. I know you're going to enjoy it, so let's get into it.

G'day, Lindsay! How's it going?

Hey, Pete, It's going great. How are you?

I'm good. I'm good. So I've got you on the podcast today to talk a bit about American business culture versus Australian business culture. And you've got sort of three points that we can go through and talk about and sort of have an exchange on, on our opinions of how things would potentially differ or how maybe they're the same.

Yeah. I always find it really interesting when, especially when it comes to culture, when we think something will be very similar. But there are actually subtle underlying differences below the surface. That if we don't look at them, we could blow up a business relationship, right? We could really screw it up if we don't have that extra level of awareness. So yeah, I'm excited for this topic today.

Awesome. Do you wanna give me a bit of background maybe in your career? We were just doing a podcast episode on, on your podcast, All Ears English. So guys, obviously go and have a listen to that, whether it's before this one or after this one. And you asked me about my sort of origin story with Aussie English and we went through that and you were like, I've sort of got a similar story in terms of not necessarily having the 9 to 5 job for years and years and years prior to doing this. So yeah. What was your background and how did you end up starting All Ears English?

Yeah. So after college, I did not want to be an American that stays in their country their whole life, right? I wanted to get out. And so I went to Japan, taught English there for a year and a half. As far as I could get. The biggest city, I never lived in a big city and never lived in Asia. I was ready for it. I went..

So that was Tokyo?

That was Tokyo, Yeah, exactly. And then after that, moved to New York City and then took a year backpacking through South America. So had my experience there, and then ended up starting a tutoring company and then eventually went to graduate school. And after that started All Ears English podcast.

But in graduate school I studied cross-cultural communications, so I sort of got a deeper look at, you know, what can we look for when it comes to culture and language and what could really, Yeah, what do we need to know when we cross cultures? So..

When you say, yeah, I know, respect!, I love that we have that in common. So, when you say graduate school too, this is one of those things that differs between America and Australia. What does that mean? Is that, is that when you come straight out of high school, you go to graduate school or is it graduate school after university in your first degree?

Right. Yeah, exactly. Graduate school in the US is a masters. So a Master of Arts, Master of Science. Yeah. Two years.

Ah, i.t's interesting too, because when I went through Melbourne University and I was studying, I did my bachelor's of Science there. And just as I was finishing that, we used to do an honours year before potentially doing a PhD, but they had just switched it over to doing the American model of Masters. So I ended up doing a masters degree, which was two years, and it was that, you had a project, but you also had eight subjects that you had to finish over the two year period.

And so it was really interesting that during that phase, we were taking on the American model of a Mas- and for all intents and purposes, it was way better than an honours degree and it ended up giving you a better qualification as well, which was part of the reason for them wanting to do it. So it's interesting that your culture is bleeding in here too.

Oh, that is interesting. The cultures bleed for sure. So you're saying you got kind of more the general, general education requirements and you said you had the eight subjects. Were those more broad? So you were able to build that broader base of knowledge?

I think so, yeah. So, honours degrees would usually have been, I think maybe one or two subjects, but I don't think that they were mandatory. You would just kind of go and do a statistics subject. So you had the experience but you wouldn't actually do the exams or anything on the subject to get that as part of your degree. It would be more the honours degree was just the, the project that you were doing, right. Whereas with the master's degree, yeah, it was effectively a full year's worth of classes and then a full year's worth of project. And they would be stats classes, genetics classes, ecology class, whatever it was related to your topic, sort of, yeah. As you said, more broadly. You're going deeper than you did in your bachelor's degree. And trying to complement your project.

Got it. Got it. Yeah. Okay. So we're on the same page. We know what it's like to kind of not go to the corporate world with our lives, right? Be in academia a little bit, travelling a little bit. And that's where we really see cultural differences when we travel, you know?

Yeah, exactly. So you had brought up three points here to sort of go through and we can have a bit of tit for tat, right? We can have a go back- backwards and forwards on these topics. So what is point number one?

Yeah. So I was thinking about how the US might be different. I was consulting a couple of sources here. I was on The Navigator blog for the US and Australia www.CountryNavigator.com. They highlighted this idea, right, that you know, when you're in the US, it's actually considered in many cases a good thing to be self promotional. And you and I have talked about this, the 'tall poppy syndrome'. We talked about this I think the last time we recorded and I remembered that and I was like, we should come back to that time. Because it's really interesting how it's looked at so differently across the two cultures. Yeah. What do you think, Pete?

100%! 100%! Like if you come in, especially if it's, you've just gotten the job, or you're applying for the job. And the first thing as soon as you said 'self promotional', the first word that came to my head was 'wanker', right? Which is sort of like a, it's kind of a, it's obviously impolite, but it's not, it's not really a swear word. But it effectively suggests that someone is tooting their own horn, right. Too much. Right. That they're just full of themselves, as you said, self promotional. And you're just like, 'Oh, God, yeah.'.

So, and I 100% know that type. But I think, yeah, it seems like that difference, we'll watch, at least as Australians will get to know Americans or watch TV and movies. And we do get that feeling of you guys have to be your biggest fans, right. To be able to get the job or anything, you're the ones that are like, Well, we've got- 'If we're not going to promote ourselves, no one else is going to'. And whereas here in Australia you would be like, 'This guy is such a wanker, he won't shut up about himself.' Or you know, it would have that different, different feeling about it. But it makes sense. You would think, well, 'If he's not going to be his biggest fan, who else is?!' Like..

Right, right. I think it's a subtle difference though, right? Like we do have people that talk about themselves all the time and there are definitely expressions in American English for that, too. And no one wants to talk about that. Talk to that person, right, at the party who's always coming back to themselves.

Yes.

But I guess the context is a little bit different. It may be due to kind of the open market system in the states, right. It's sort of like rugged individualism, super super intense capitalism, where everyone's sort of enterprising, starting businesses, or at least historically it was the case, right. I think more in the business situation, like an interview- or it's good to be different, let's just say, in the US. Like, it's good to have a differentiating factor. Something about you that's quirky, that's unique, and it's even better if you've turned that in to a way to make money. Let's- let's say that.

That's kind of how we see self promotional. Not always a bad thing. Definitely not good to brag all the time. But you had a party, like I said. But don't think that person when you come to The States, right.

Exactly. And that said, there are definitely plenty of- well, we use 'wanker' probably more frequently on other Australians than we do on foreigners. So there are plenty of them here in Australia who are self promotional. So it's not like every single Australian doesn't toot their own horn. But yeah, it is interesting these, kind of like cultural dances that you kind of have to work out and it's quite often not spoken about.

And if you were to talk to Australians about it, they may not necessarily even be able to verbalise what it is that's just giving them that feeling. And it would be the same for Americans, right. And this is, I think this is a big issue with women in the workplace, and not that- that pay gap, right. Is quite often women have a more modest personality, a set of personality traits, where they're not tooting their own horns the whole time and they are trying to be more inclusive and include other people to help do a job. Whereas guys are much more likely to be like, "I can do it, I can do it on my own." "I can do it better than anyone else. Give me a pay rise."

It's so true. It's so true. You know, I've heard stories of people in the corporate world. Not really- you know, men specifically. Like, not doing anything and just getting pay raises and, you know, promotions just because they're sort of managing up, right. They are associating with the right people, talking to the right people, reporting on the work that they haven't necessarily done, right. So there is..

At least done alone. Yeah.

Exactly. Exactly. So this is really subtle. And it's really hard for us to, you know, break it down here on this podcast, but it's something I would encourage your listeners. If you do travel to the US and Australia, see if you can notice it, right. See if you can notice it in what we're saying and how we're talking to each other; when we're being self promotional and when we're not, right? That's all we can say. Yeah.

Exactly. Exactly. I think too, you brought up 'trust' versus, say, 'task orientation' as, as a key difference. Yeah. How would you describe this?

I love this one. This is really interesting. So Americans are all about getting the job done, right? So..

Hence, the expression "get her done!", right.

I love that! Exactly. Exactly. Just 'get it done'. And I was thinking about that when I was prepping this episode. I think what Americans want to do is they want to build trust. Like, kind of as a result of getting the job done. We've gotten the job done and now I trust you. Whereas I have a hunch- I'm going to, I'm going to ask you, Pete, you know, in Australia, do- when do we actually build trust? Do we need that trust before we even start the job, or does it happen while getting it done? Or is it more after it's been completed? What would you say?

It's a tough one for me to answer honestly, because I mean, as we talked about on your podcast, I don't have the greatest amount of experience in full time work and working in teams. I would say, you know, during my- my studies, I was always working with other people that were often employed at different places.

And so I was in the work environment, but I just wasn't being paid. So I did sort of experience it. But I think yeah, that- a big emphasis, at least for me personally, was always rapport and trust with other people that you're around. And I think it was probably, yeah, as you say, developing that first and then worrying about the job much more than, yeah, we just need to get this job done and I don't care if I can trust you or not, because I think, yeah, the average Australian- and it probably comes in to 'tall poppy syndrome'. And talking yourself up too much.

And then also mateship. I don't know if we've talked about mateship before, but this is kind of- I looked this up, how you would define this. And it was actually in the article that you found, I found myself reading the same article. So they say, "Australians believe firmly in mateship, showing loyalty to friends, family and colleagues and in Australian culture, people working in teams may be more loyal to the team than to their employer." To their employers. So..

Ah, fascinating!

And that- I totally noticed that when I was working in, in a cafe. So doing hospitality work. We used to all hate the manager, you know, we'd hate- one, she was a bit of an arsehole. So it wasn't, you know, most places probably have nicer managers, but we had a horrible woman. But it had this counterintuitive effect of actually bringing the team together and us trusting each other a shitload more than we trusted her. And so it was quite often more about us as a team than it necessarily was about getting the task done!

Right! Not loyal to the employer, but the team. That's super interesting.

Yeah.

And then I think it also ties in, just another point on this, and then we can kind of move on to the next one. But it ties into to time, right? Time versus relationships. So in the US, this is- I'm drawing broad stereotypes here, right? So there are always going to be people who don't follow this rule. But, an American businessperson would leave the meeting because another meeting is starting at 5:00 PM. They're going to leave that meeting even if you're in the middle of still working on something, because the schedule matters more than continuing the trust building, right? Like, matters more than maybe than the relationship, right. Getting being on time for the next thing. Whereas in Australia, would you say that schedules are a little bit looser? What do you think? Or is it more kind of the American model where it's like, it starts at five? If it starts if five, doesn't start at 5:10, it starts in five.

I think I think, as you say, it's a broad sort of stereotype. There would be places where they would be a lot more strict and perhaps there would be an American influence at those workplaces. You know, there could be international companies or they could have a lot of American employees or whatever. But definitely when I was working at the museum, and we had American people- my supervisor was American and his wife. But the emphasis did quite often become, it- stuff goes for as long as it goes. It takes as long as it takes, but you need to be all there doing it together.

And so, and even when we were socialising, it would be the expectation of 'What do you mean you're not coming to Friday night drinks? That's where we all hang out and get to know one another and build the team.' Kind of mateship, that spirit, you know, we get to know one another outside of work effectively when we're not worrying about a certain task. So I remember there was quite an emphasis on that. And you would, yeah, you would get to see a lot of, a lot of your colleagues getting drunk. And then just being themselves and being like, Oh, okay, wow. They pulled the, the curtain away.

Yeah, that part might be. And I found that when I lived in Japan too. That's super important in Japanese culture. Kind of going out after work, drinking with your colleagues, that's a little bit less so in American culture. I mean, people will go to 'happy hour', but it's a bonus.

Yeah,

It's like, 'Hey!' Maybe with your team, it's definitely not required or expected in any way. And so..

Have you seen the film Crocodile Dundee?

Oh, well, yeah, it's a, it's an old one, right.

Yeah. From the 80s. Yeah. But it is that classic- like probably the, the loosest, most relaxed Australian lifestyle, right. So you know, Crocodile Dundee, the guy who's Mick Dundee, the guy out in the outback wrestling with crocodiles and he ends up falling in love with an American journalist. And they have that tit for tat thing of she comes to Australia and he's totally, totally out of a comfort zone. Things run on Australian time, no one's punctual or whatever, and then he goes to America and he's like, 'Oh my God!'

And so it is a beautiful, like, movie for looking at those cultural differences between the sort of extremes. You know, she's from a wealthy family. Her husband runs a certain, you know, newspaper or whatever, and they are, they go out to a restaurant and Crocodile Dundee will be like eating with his hands or whatever, and they'll be like, 'What the hell?' So yeah, that's a good film for those cultural differences.

Oh, for sure. I love that. Yeah, I'll have to go back and see that again. I saw that when I was like ten, so it's been a long time. I love it. Yeah.

Awesome! So point two, the average American businessperson may not have travelled abroad, versus Australia.

Yes. Yes. So I call this insular, right. This idea of kind of insularity. You know, I feel kind of- it's pains me to say this and, you know, this is not everyone. Obviously, there are people like me who want to travel, who built a career around being international in mindset and travelling a ton. But the fact is, it's a huge country and there's a lot of people that have never left the US. And you know, it's possible that you'll encounter people like that in in the business world. People just, I think Australians travel a lot. That's my hunch. You could let me know. But when I was travelling in Asia I met a ton of Aussies. It just feels like the mindset, and this would bleed into business, would be more open to international events, history, just plugging the world into their daily lives. What do you think?

100% agree. And I think we do have that feeling. I've always felt like it's- if our countries are houses, you guys sitting around the dinner table having a conversation with each other. And we're in our house and everyone's standing at a window looking outside.

Interesting! That's a great analogy!

I feel like. So that insular versus, say we're always looking outwards. Whether that's consuming your movies and perhaps it's one direction, perhaps it's just a way of looking at America. But mainly I think a lot of the world is always focussed on you guys because you are such a powerhouse of content creation, right? Of media, of you're the most powerful country in the world, and so you demand the attention and get it from a lot of the rest of the world. And so, yeah, but it is interesting. I was wondering, I looked this up, I was like, 'Can I look up the stats of this?' Because I do get that feeling of..

Oh yeah.

The- just from consuming material from America, that the average American doesn't travel that much. And I do get the feeling that Australians, pretty much every Australian I meet has been overseas at some point. It's pretty rare to ever meet someone who's like, 'Oh no, screw that. I don't even have a passport!' You'd be like, 'What? How do you exist?'.

But the stats, I looked up the stats and it's apparently in 2019, nearly 40% of Australians in that year travelled overseas. So, it was almost 10 million Aussies. And our population is 25 million. Yeah, and when I looked at the US it was 13.5% for the same year. So three times- three times fewer people were travelling overseas. And a much- not just that, I mean, yeah. Proportionate, right. Like, to your population, you got 330 million and it was something like 44 million people had gone overseas. And it would be interesting to know how many of them were to Mexico or to Canada, right.

So that you weren't actually getting on a plane necessarily, or at least going to a different continent. Whereas we pretty much have to do that to go anywhere else. There's no- there's no driving. Yeah.

Yeah. Those numbers feel about right. That's kind of what I was getting at, you know, That's the feeling. And it's a shame. You know, this past weekend, I was at a holiday party talking to my partner's co-worker. And this guy had lived- he grew up, I think in South Africa. He's lived in the UK, He's lived all all over the world. It was by far the most interesting conversation I had all night. And he was sharing that he has two girls. 'We're living in Colorado now. Colorado, where I live is a fantastic place to live. There's a ton of sunshine, outdoor lifestyle. It's great.'.

But he shared with me and I completely resonated with him. He said, 'You know, my biggest fear is that my girls grow up and they live a great life in Colorado and they never know what it feels like to be uncomfortable. They don't have a second in their lives where they know what it feels like to be uncomfortable in any way', right? And I said, 'Oh my God, I get you. I totally get you.' And this is kind of the story of mainstream America, right? So that's kind of what you might encounter in the business world.

So for your listeners, if they're trying to broach the topic of some international event or some history, it may not work quite as well with your average American person. So, yeah.

It is funny though, too. I've noticed, especially when I was working at a restaurant, the Americans were always the most interesting people. Because I don't know if it is because the most interesting Americans have the need to leave the country, see the rest of the world. And so I never got to meet, you know, some- I don't know that stereotype of, say, a racist redneck who loves Trump and hates everyone else. You would never meet those people, really, going around Australia.

.. travel.

Yeah, exactly. And it's probably the same. You wouldn't meet the same sort of people that Australia has, over in the US, travelling and trying to experience the place. Is it to, as sort of an aside, do you think that there would be significant differences across the American landscape of which say states have the people that travel the most versus other states?

Oh, no question. It is-.

I feel like California would be the most sort of- and the, the east side too, right?

The East Coast. And this is where we could get into a larger discussion on politics. But it's where honestly, it's where our politics have become so toxic and divided. On the coast, people are by far more worldly, more well travelled, just more aware that there is an outside world, right. California, Washington, Oregon, and then the whole Eastern seaboard. Not as much the southern states, because you get into a bit more of a regional thing going on there.

Than in Florida..

.. New York City. But there is a term, unfortunately, in American politics, 'coastal elite' is like, 'coastal elitism', and this has kind of been slapped on to Democrats now.

Yeah.

Because a lot of Republicans who Trump ended up kind of courting and, you know, gaining them, kind of, they feel disillusioned with coastal elites. They think that they've been left behind. They think they're so much better. And it's really created a huge divide. It's a shame in our country. So it's between people that do travel and have an awareness and an interest in the world, versus people who kind of want to stay in their own places. But yeah, talk, toxic politics right now.

I wonder how much those groups double down on it too, where if you are, 'I'm a Democrat' and 'I'm from New York' or 'I'm from somewhere in California. Therefore, I do need to travel. I do need to be more worldly and vice versa.' Like, you know, 'I'm a Republican and I'm from Ohio' and 'work on a farm' or 'have a family farm', so, 'screw travelling anywhere else. I'm not one of those, you know, hoity toity elites. I'm not going overseas and learning another language. I'm from this country. I'm from here.' You know, 'I'm not even going to the next county, let alone!'

Right. But it's so sad. Like, why does it have to be either or? You know, why, you know, as you know, someone from the coast, right. If I say 'I'm proud to be an American', there's a little bit of a negative stigma there that I might get from my friends even, by saying that, that has other implications, right.

That's one of those interesting differences, I think, between Australia and American culture, too. And it probably bleeds into business, is the amount of national pride Americans have. And that is that thing of like if you- like, if I were to go out and say to the average Australian, you know, 'I'm a proud Australian', you know, 'in my country, I'm Australian', you know, 'freedom!' They'd be like, 'You're a fucking Nazi'. 'You're a Nazi, mate.' 'You're a Nazi, you need to be locked away.' Whereas you guys seem, it seems to be a point of pride and that it's- I don't know. And it could go either way, right? It could be something that really draws your country together and keeps you guys, you know, as one group. In Australia, is a bit more spread out and less proud of who we should be proud of.

But it is an interesting difference where I will notice that Americans are much more vociferous, much more vocal about how proud they are that they're American. 'I've got a flag in my front yard' and I'd be like, 'Jeez, you can't do that, dude.' Like, 'you can't. If I had an Australian flag, my house would be like, fire bombed.'.

Yeah, no, it's a fascinating topic. And things have shifted, you know, over the years in terms of flying flags and you know, who really does that and where would you want to do that and not do that, maybe.

Yeah.

But yeah, it's, it's a big topic, Pete. But it's interesting. I think we all should try as much as we can, you know, if, you know, sometimes money is just not there to travel internationally. Fair enough. We were just talking about how expensive it is to travel to South America. But, you know, just getting outside of the region within the US is even something that we should try to do, I think. So I'm making a recommendation to my fellow Americans.

Where do you think Aussies travel to the most when they're going overseas? And I haven't double checked this, but I have a feeling. There's two locations that I reckon would be the primary locations for Australians.

I was, I would guess, somewhere in in Asia. So I feel like Malaysia or somewhere in Southeast Asia. Thailand?

Getting close.

Yeah, Singapore?

Too far.

Japan?

Bali.

Oh yeah, Indonesia! Yes!

100%!

Some of the Aussies that I met in Japan had talked about Bali all the time. Yes. Yeah, that makes sense. I want to go there. Oh my gosh,

I'd love to go there. But for the fact that there are so many Australians there. Like when I, as you were saying, when I travel overseas, the last, the last thing I want to encounter is another Australian.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

I want to get into their culture, I want to, you know, and I'm sure you can probably avoid them in Bali, but yeah. And New Zealand would be the other one.

New Zealand. That makes sense. That makes sense.

Anyway. So point three, getting back to the topic at hand, you wanted to talk about business jargon or sports jargon in business in the US. And this was again, we were talking about it on the podcast with you that you guys use a lot of sports expressions in the business world.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, we're going to go out on a more easygoing topic here, Pete, right? Something easier to understand. Now that we've opened up that can of worms, that we could go on. We're not going to go on there. It's just, we do use- I think sports is really is a huge part of our culture. You know, I know that soccer is a huge worldwide sport, but in the US we prefer football, basketball, baseball, hockey, those are the big ones. And, you know, there are expressions that come from all those sports. Less so hockey, but I'm sure I could come up with a few.

They're just inserted into business jargon. And you'll, you know, use that 'drop the ball', 'ball's in your court'. 'That's a slam dunk'. Like, they can be a little cheesy at times, but we totally use them.

This gives me that vibe of like the eighties American business culture in films where they'll have that, you know, what is it like The Wolf of Wall Street kind of characters and..

Oh my gosh.

Do you think a big part of it is those wealthy businessmen were also, for one reason or another, obsessed with sports, and that's what sort of- it trickled down? Or do you think it trickled up?

I think probably it was the former, right. They were wealthy businessmen and they were getting box seats. They were taking their clients to games. And so, yeah, it was a male dominated thing, right. At the top levels of corporations. And therefore they just inserted these. They were talking to each other. Bros, right. Talking to each other, exchanging this kind of sub-language, right? It's like speaking in code. And..

I could be an alpha male too. So, 'I love my sports.' Yeah.

Exactly. But one great recommendation I would make for your listeners, if they can access the show Ghosts, it's a fantastic show. It's just like half an hour, once a week, is on TV. It is a story of all these different people from different eras in time in upstate New York who died on the property of a mansion. And there are a couple of them that come straight from the 80s and they drop all those cheesy expressions and phrases.

So I imagine this is fiction, right? This is not a documentary.

Yeah. It's no, it's not a documentary. It's just a fun story. It's a fiction TV show. But it's fun, because you'll hear all of them and you can laugh. You know, 'That guy is from the 90s, Wall Street.' 'That guy is a, you know, camp counsellor from the 80s.' And you can see how the culture changed, all the references. It's just very rich. Yeah.

So, when I say I've got a bunch of listeners who are actually living in the US and they want to get into business, what do you think the importance is of adopting these kinds of expressions. And more broadly, just American business English, when in that, that environment?

I think, you know, go slowly. Try a few. I'd say most important thing is listening. As you said, that's how you picked up French. Absorb, so much listening. Like, more than you think you need, right? So you're used to hearing them, understanding them when they are used. And then you can start throwing them in if they feel natural to you. Some of them, they just have to- You're not going to just open it up and drop this phrase and it feels totally staged, right? It has to feel natural.

You've been waiting that whole day. You're just like, 'Oh my God, it's coming. It's coming. I'm going to ...'.

Here it is! 'Ball's in your court!' 'Ball's in your court!'

And you're like, 'I did it!'

'I got it! Score! Score!'

Yeah, 100%. I think. Yeah, it is interesting. A big thing for me is always like, listen to what other people are saying and just mimic it. I mean, obviously don't do it in the moment. But if you hear people using that kind of jargon in the business environment, then feel free to use it just- and listen to the context. And it's the same thing. It kind of is loosely linked to swearing like, right, Although people kind of set the bar. And you'll notice between Lindsay and I, I swear more than she does, that might partly be because I'm Australian and it may reflect a little bit the Australian work environment too is a bit..

Sure,

A little bit more informal like that. But if you hear it, you don't, I would suggest not, say, walking into a room and dropping the C bomb or the F bomb and then being like, how are people going to react? Instead, listening to what people are using when they're speaking to one another and matching, matching that kind of conversation, right. And yeah, if you want to learn expressions, instead of getting online and being like 'business expression list' and then going to work, try and listen out for when people use idioms at work. And then, you know, that's the context in which you can use them.

So these are fine to use at work. So if you hear people saying, you know, 'he's on the ball' or 'the ball's in your court', then you know, 'bam, I'm going to make a note' and 'I remember I can use this.' And then that's how you bring it into your vocab.

100%. We need a little bit of social intelligence, guys. Let's employ social intelligence when it comes to how are we going to use what we've learned. And definitely, as you said, Pete, totally agree. Stay away from those lists on the Internet, right. Be careful of those because some of them are definitely old fashioned and irrelevant at this point. So listen to what people are actually saying. Yeah.

I'd say, yeah, phone a friend, right. If you get- if you got a list like that, probably have it vetted by someone who's a native speaker. Because yeah, sometimes I'll be reading these 'Aussie slang lists' and I don't know why I use an American accent there, but like they they'll have all these terms and you'll be like, 'Oh, these are such stereotypes that no one uses anymore'. Like..

Yeah, it's true. You know, when we, when we built our Business English course in 2020, we actually decided- in order to stay away from those lists, we surveyed 100 of our friends who do actually work in the corporate world, right? Who work in all different industries.

And we literally, on the survey said, 'What words do you use at work', 'what expressions..' We just took those and we put them in the course. So we're sure to avoid any of that stuff that we were teaching irrelevant business..

Yeah. Outdated.

Yeah. Yeah. So..

So, as a sort of bonus point here, how often would you use slang, and even swear words, in the work environment? And obviously it's going to depend on the people and the type of work and everything like that. But do you feel like there is a place for that in American business? Is there not a place for it? How do you think it differs between Australia and America?

I think it depends on the company. I mean, there- I'm sure there is a place in some companies. My partner swears a lot. I've been hearing her swear a lot lately, but she's the office next door now, now that we're working from home.

So you just go to soundproof it so you can't hear that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think maybe more. I don't know if she would do that in the actual office quite as much. That's the interesting thing, right. So things may have changed a little bit with work from home, even though you're still speaking to the same people, it's just that you're online. Maybe that changes something.

But I have a feeling that you guys might swear more in general, in business culture in Australia, than we do in America. Yeah.

It's an interesting thing and I, I think a big part of it is that Australians, the 'tall poppy syndrome', the 'mateship' thing, but also Australians hate formality. We really dislike. Like, if you were to call me 'sir' in public, it would just send a shiver down my spine of like, 'Oh my God, I'm just a normal human being. Please, please don't do that'. You know, like don't put me on a pedestal as that tall poppy thing. So the 'tall poppy thing' can be people putting themselves on the pedestal and being like, 'I'm better than everyone else'. And we also hate when other people put us on a pedestal.

So you'll even notice. You'll find, you know, videos and clips of the Prime Minister of Australia swearing, and using slang and saying, 'g'day, mate! how's it going?' And really trying to avoid the whole 'I'm up here and everyone's down [t]here' because I think, inherently, he would just not get voted in if he had that kind of attitude.

Right. Okay. I love that. Interesting. Yeah. And that's another place where we see that 'tall poppy syndrome' coming out, right. Around that, wow, the informality. It's a little bit different in the States, I don't think. I think we like it when people are familiar and casual in general, but we don't have that much of a reaction, I think, when someone might address us more formally. We might just correct them and say, 'Oh, you know, you can call me Lindsay. It's cool. No problem. We can be we can be informal here.'...

It's so interesting.

.. to be weird. That would be weird.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. If you said, 'Yeah. Okay. Please don't do that. You just kept doing it'. You'd be like, 'you're just being mean.' The weirdness, I think where I see it all the time, is obviously in American TV shows and movies, where you guys have waitstaff interacting with people. But also the police, and how polite both, both- usually, both the public is to the police, and the police are to the public. Because again, here in Australia, a cop isn't going to do that. He's not going to call you 'sir'. He'll probably say, 'Mate', you know, 'how's it going, mate? I've pulled you over because we've had this..'

Again, trying to lower that lightness of formality and be like, 'I'm a friend. Don't be afraid of me. I'm a friend.' Whereas you guys have much more- And I don't know how much this is related to the the gun culture in the US, but because, I think because of that, partly, you guys are way more polite to, to other people, who potentially are armed, right. Or when there's a gun that's introduced into the room, it's like everyone's on their best behaviour.

Right! Oh my God. Huge topic again, Pete. We have to do a whole 'nother episode to get into this. I don't even know if we could start, but yeah, we do. Yes, we do address police officers with a little more of that 'up language' for sure. More formal language. I mean, there's lots of issues with race going on, especially right now. With gun violence and police and misunderstandings and violence, you know, hidden bias or elicit bias that people have. There's a lot going on in the States. So stay tuned to this and, you know, follow the issue for sure.

But my question for you would be just- just to finish, when they're so informal, if they do need to kind of then step in and exercise their authority, is that harder to do once they've established that in formality? Like, we're buddies? What if they need to actually kind of physically separate a crowd or...

There probably is, that to some extent. But I think, I think obviously action really speaks. So I think people are getting- you're going to get the vibe, right. Whatever they're saying, you're going to understand when things are suddenly more serious. And I have had that. Like, I have tradies, ,so tradespeople come over and say an electrician or a plumber or something. And it definitely does make you relax a lot more.

I was about to say a shitload more, when they are a little more informal with you straight off the bat, you're like, 'Oh, this guy's relaxed.'' Okay, I have this guy in my house and he's not going to be awkward or weird'', and he's just like, you know,' how the fuck are you? Whatever. Like, I mean, not necessarily like that, but. But he's just, like, straight off the bat, chatty, informal, and you're kind of like, 'Oh, cool. It's just another authentic, you know, soul to the earth kind of person who's doing his thing'.

And so I think there is this kind of informality causes people to relax a bit more around you in Australian culture. Whereas I don't know what it's like in the US. You might see it more as a rudeness, as opposed to, say, causing you to relax. I don't know.

I think it's somewhere in between. Like, I think it depends so much on the personality. The context, right? It just depends on where you are. It also, you know, this can vary across socioeconomic levels too. I mean, it's just- it's, yeah, it just depends. It depends. But we're probably a little bit more formal than you guys are, in many contexts, I would guess.

This is an interesting topic. Would I get away with more informality, being Australian? Like, you hearing my Australian accent. If I was in America, would you let me get away with the average thing that say an American, you would be like, 'This guy is being rude.'

I don't know if people would. This goes back to the insularity, right? I don't know if people would know that you kind of have that cultural permission in Australia to be more rude. I don't know if in their minds it goes along with the accent, so they may not be aware. So yeah, they may be..

Interesting.

A little offended if they hear you dropping a lot of swears or surprised.

Yeah.

Yeah. If they haven't travelled, haven't met Aussies and they just know the accent but they don't know other stuff that goes along with it. Informality, swearing more. So that's not in their script.

Yeah. Okay. So that's that lack of experience. Well it's interesting here. Say, if you've got a foreign accent, as in a non-native English accent, and you are dropping words like 'g'day', 'mate', slang terms, we love it, right? If you've got a British accent or an American accent, we think you're being patronising and rude. If you were to be like, 'G'day, mate! How's it going?' You'd be like, 'Fuck,'..

Sure, sure.

Like, what do you- what are you doing? Just take it. It'd be like me being like, 'howdy, partner!' You'd be like,

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. Oh, so you mean if, if I'm saying in Australia in slang term, but not using an Aussie accent, is what you mean, right? Like..

It depends obviously on the situation and you're going to be able to gauge whether or not they're being rude. But I think the average Australian is much more likely to be like on the defence. If they hear an American saying, you know, like 'g'day', it's going to sound a lot more unnatural and it can have that sarcastic or patro- because that's when it tends to happen the most from Americans. I'd be like, 'Oh yeah, g'day mate, how's it going? G'day!'

And you'd be like, 'All right, we get it, we get it, we get it.' You know..

Of course, you'll think you're being teased, right? And the automatic kind of defence goes up, right? That makes total sense.

The classic example would be, is it Dumb and Dumber, where Jim Carrey is in a limo and he shoves his head out the window and there's this beautiful woman?

Oh, yes.

And he's like, 'Where are you from?' And she's like, 'Austria'. And he's like, 'Oh, Australia! G'day, mate! Chuck another shrimp on the barbie!' And so that is like etched in our minds, of just like, argh!

That caricature. It becomes, it's like a caricature, right? That, that makes total sense.

Yeah.

But that's understandable. As human beings, we don't want to be characterised and made fun of. We don't want to be diminished or centralised into anything, right? We are different. We are who we are. That makes it- I would feel the same way, right? You know, if someone were kind of in an American accent, kind of the worst stereotype of American culture, and pointing at me, and I'm not that, you know. Yeah, so it makes sense. I get you.

Awesome. Well man, we've covered these three points and it's been a lot of fun. Is there anything else you think, you know. Are these big differences between American and Australian culture at work, or do you think it's- and what do you think about mastering those differences?

Oh man, we've covered a lot here, Pete. I think I think we're just scratching the surface. We could have gone for an hour on any one of these topics, guys. But you know, for your listeners, I would say just, most important thing is be curious. And especially be curious when it seems like it should be the same, right? Your average person might think, Oh, Australia, the US, we speak English or Australia, UK, USA, you know, it'll be the same.

No, that's where we could really get into trouble. When it comes to doing business across cultures, there will be subtle differences as we've just talked about. So just be aware of them, be ready and ask questions, I would say.

And I think for any native English speakers listening to this episode, I imagine there won't be many, but for any that I- give people the benefit of the doubt, right? Like, if they are foreigners, whether they're native English speakers or not, a big thing is just that, that charity, right? Assuming the best instead of the worst.

So if you interpret something, and it seems rude or it seems incorrect, I would say err on the side of giving people the benefit of the doubt. If they swear where they shouldn't, if they use informal language, where they should know formal language, where they shouldn't, you know, you just, you just have to just let it be water off a duck's back and assume the best intent, not the worst.

It's just a better way to go through life, right, Pete? Just assuming the best, right? We just- it's a kinder way to be, you know what I mean? And it's much, much easier on your own heart if, you know, everyone's just doing their best. Not everyone's aware of all of these things. So as you said, give them the benefit of the doubt. So good.

And be, just be aware though, there are wankers out there. They'll get you. So just keep an eye out for that. So if they do it, if they do it twice, that's when you know. Yeah.

Anyway, Lindsay, you've, you've just launched a business English podcast. Give us a quick mention about that and tell where people can find it.

Yeah. Thanks, Pete. So we just launched a, as I said, it's called Business English Podcast. It's a basic title, but it's from All Ears English. And you guys can find it if you go ahead and open up that search bar, wherever you're listening right now, and just type in Business English from All Ears English, and you will see the yellow- We have three shows now. IELTS Energy, Business English, and All Ears English.

And we've curated our episodes that are just about business, especially social topics in the business workplace. So how do you invite your colleagues out after after work? If you do do that right? We do it less often in the US than in Australia, I guess. But how do you wish your colleague a happy birthday? And we have here topics where we'll have actual CEOs and coaches on the show and interview them. So, guys go and sign up for that. If you use business at work in any- English in business, in any way. And I hope to see your listeners over there!

Awesome! Well, Lindsey McMahon, oh, let me do it again. Awesome! Well, Lindsey, thank you for coming on the show. Where can people find out more about your main podcast, too, or your website?

Sure, yeah. If they don't know about the main podcast, the bigger show, it's called All Ears English. It's a big show, guys. Go over and check it out and you can always find us as well at www.AllEarsEnglish.com So..

Awesome! Thanks, Lindsey! I hope to have you on again soon.

Thanks for having me on, Pete. I've enjoyed our chat!