Transcript of AE 1208 - Interview: Getting A Job in Australia with Sonia Raquel Soares

G'day, guys! How's it going? Welcome to this episode of Aussie English. I have a very special episode today. Because my wife Raquel Soares, is here on the podcast. Kelly! It has been a while.

I thought you were going to say I have my beautiful wife on the podcast.

Well, close enough.

But you didn't.

I didn't. Brutal. So it's probably been a few years since you've been on.

No!

Yeah, it would have been! I think the last time you were on, we were probably talking about Noah when he was younger than Joey currently is. So our two kids, Noah and Joana. Noah. I think we'll have to go back and have a look. I should have done it before recording this episode, but I'm pretty sure that we were talking about bilingual kids. And that would have been one of the last episodes that you were on the podcast.

But we already had Joey, right?

I don't think- I don't know. I have to go back and check.

I think so because I was. I remember I was drinking wine.

Maybe we did one with Joe. Oh, no, that would have been that's one of the episodes inside the Academy. That's not actually on the podcast.

Okay.

Um, but yeah. So, what have you been up to, Kel? Since? What's the goss? What have you been doing? Tell us. Tell us how you are.

I'm very tired. I've been working. Pretty much go to work, come back for the kids. Trying to do it all.

Yeah?

Very, very hard to manage both things, but yeah. Yeah, just. Just. I mean, what, when was it? Like when Joey was around six months that I started looking for a job?

Mmhmm.

Because we wanted to get a house, it would just be much easier. You know, if we had two incomes.

Well, part of it was that we couldn't get a big enough loan based on my income alone. So, you know, for transparency, they were, the bank was only going to lend me half $1 million, which would have been enough to get a house in probably only the, you know, worst suburbs nearby. And so we needed probably another 150, $200,000 on top of that. And the only way for us to get an increase was for you to go back to work. But it's also because I'm self-employed, that it makes it very difficult to get a decent loan and for it to be. If you had the income that I had and you had a full time job that was, you know, contracted by someone, you would get way more from the banks than I did because I'm a sole trader.

Yeah.

I'm a contractor myself, so I don't. Yeah. So you went back. You were initially working at the golf club?

Yeah, so..

That was the first job that you got after having the kids.

It was really like, because I didn't know how things were going to go, really. Like, it's so hard to put yourself. You know, in that position of like, 'All right, I'm going back to work.' It's so such a cliche, but it's really weird. After I had the two kids, I was like, 'I'm never going to work again!' Because I couldn't imagine like, doing that consumes, having the kids consumes everything I have. Like, I put 100% into them. Like, taking care of them. And the energy and there is no time for anything else.

So it's like, how am I going to do this? But it was really good for me to, you know, try and find something for myself. And I did start at the golf club. So they have a restaurant at the, um, there's this massive golf club around where we live.

You can tell them the name of it. You don't work with..

Curlewis Golf club. And they have a, they had an advertisement for, they wanted a kitchen hand, sort of helper around the kitchen thing for the restaurant. But, um, and I was like, 'Yeah, yeah, sure, I'll go for it'. I really, I swear to God, I applied thinking they would never call me because not to brag, but I have, you know, I'm very qualified. And I was like, well, I can't. I was trying and trying to find a job into, um, admin or like reception and those, all those things.

And it was so hard and I was like, 'Whatever, next thing that comes up, I'll apply for'. And I did. And the next day they called me and I was like, 'Oh, okay!'

So what was the process like, though? Did you just find the job application online and then submit your CV, your resume?

Yeah, it depends on the job. Like for this job specifically, they didn't ask for anything really, just your CV and, you know, your phone number. And that was it. That's why I thought they would never call me because by looking on my like, to my CV, they'd be like, 'She's never worked in this field', in this industry. So she therefore doesn't have the experience. But anyway, they did call me, um, and I went for an interview which was very, you know, a very relaxed sort of chat with the. The chef, the one of the chefs, the head chef at the time. I'm not sure if he's still there. But anyway, and he was like, 'Well, look, what made you apply for this job? Because I can see here that you're not this is not actually your your area'. And at the time, again, I was I wanted something casual, part time even, even part time was going to a bit too much. I really wanted something that I was going to be like twice a week or three times a week.

And at the time you were working when you got this job, you were working just the weekends. I can't really even remember.

I used to do only weekends, but then you know what, you got, I got more confident with like, 'I can actually walk away from the house and the kids will be fine' or. And you got much more like, 'All right, I have to make time from work to have the kids'. And we got into this dynamic and I was getting more shifts. You know, probably three times a week plus weekends, which was nice. Um, but I did, I kept applying for other jobs because as a kitchen hand, it's a lot on your body. Like it takes a toll on your, you are all day on your feet. Like, you do very strenuous sort of like work.

It's non-stop. Like, it's a busy restaurant. So I didn't want to keep it, to be doing that for a long time.

What were you doing?

I was the, um. What do you call the.. So I started the day, starting the day I would just take out of the whatever had to be left to be washed. Like all the cutlery and everything. There is a massive machine that you put everything inside. You sort everything out. Like plates and cutlery and all those things go separately. And after that I would just be helping the chefs with 'You have to cut some vegetables', 'You have to do this' and like. And at some point I was preparing dishes like when it was really, really busy, they needed extra hands.

When you say dish, you mean like a food.

It's food!

It's one of those funny words in English where it can mean obviously a dish, a plate or something. But- no, you didn't say anything wrong. But for people listening. But it can also mean when you prepare a dish, it's like you prepare a meal.

Yeah, but that's what I mean. I always actually get involved into like, all right, so you get the reci- that was the recipe. And I had to get all the measurements. So you get the flour with the right measurement. And you put everything aside so that when they go and make the food, everything's ready. They just have to mix it up. So it was really nice. I felt like they would, they were really happy with the work I was doing and trusting me with a lot of things.

And I was obsessed with finding a job at the hospital. I was just, I just kept applying and going for interviews. But they never, I never made, um, after the interview, they never, they would never call me.

You almost got one, didn't you?

I almost got one. And I had two interviews for different positions at the hospital. And one of them I almost got and I was like, 'What is it that I don't have that is stopping me from going to the next step?' And really, they really want someone with experience in working in hospitals.

Yeah, that was the big thing, wasn't it? You had experience as an admin worker, but you didn't have any medical language experience or in that in that field.

Exactly.

The person who did get the job had the same experience as you, but had worked in the medical industry.

Exactly. And I was really frustrated because, you know, you think, 'Well, if they never give me a chance, how am I going to have the experience?' Anyway, but I ended up applying for this position at Oxygen. Oxygen Music School. Music lessons, Oxygen college, whatever. Um, there was reception slash admin. I'm part time at the time. And I was like, 'All right, look, I'll apply for this one'. They took..

What did the application require?

It required..

Was it just literally handing in your CV or was there more to it?

No, I think it's funny because it really depends on the job. This job at the music school, they only they requested your CV and that was it.

Whereas the other ones that you did..

The other ones at the hospital, there is something called the selection criteria. And you usually go, the application is done through their website. So you go through pages and pages of like not only your personal information, but you've got to sort of detail your work experience very well.

And then the selection criteria is basically a bunch of questions that you have to answer very specifically for that job you're applying for. Like you can't just have an answer for whatever, you know..

Just copy paste?

No, it's very specific. Like you got to put, they'll give you situations and say, 'How would you deal with that?' Or with this issue that has, you know. That came, that happened or 'What would you do in this situation?' And you, really it's so time consuming. Um, it's yeah, I think those who finish the selection criteria, they're like, 'Okay, so these are the people we will potentially hire' because..

Well, it's a filter, right, too, because you don't get time wasters.

No. Yeah.

Who haven't gone through that process. Because you have to sit down each time you're applying for these jobs and do like an hour or so.

You have to be very intentional. And that was so hard because with, you know, Joey was so little and Noah, and I was like, there were times I was like, I cannot finish this application. And I, you know, ended up not applying for certain positions because I didn't have time to finish it. Anyway, the Oxygen application didn't require me to do that, which was easy because I was just like, 'Look, I'll just send my CV'. I didn't expect them to call me. Actually took a long time for them to call at all, like probably more than a month.

And I was like, and then one day I got a call and it was from, from them. It was my manager and I had an interview.

And what was that process like?

So they, we had a chat over the phone and then the following week I was supposed to come in and have a chat in person. I did go, but my, the person who is my boss today, he was sick, so I had a chat to the owner, one of the owners of the school who happened to be there. He didn't want just to send me home, which was really nice. He was like, 'Look, so-and-so is not here. I'll chat to you and you probably have to come back if that's okay'. I was like, 'Yeah, sure'. Again, very relaxed, but that's what is tricky sometimes. People make you feel very comfortable and they're just having a chat to you as opposed to like it's a panel with three, you know, people like your super serious.

It's very dependent on the job, obviously. But the interviews I went to were very relaxed, very they made everything to make me feel comfortable. And, you know, just like they know people are nervous. So you don't want to, you know, just you can't forget it's a job interview. So, yeah, so it was like, 'Oh, you know, I got good vibes, but I don't know, maybe he was just being friendly.'

It was very nice and relaxed. I felt it was just chatting to someone, you know, I already knew. But you never know. Like you, they do it for a reason and they ask you certain questions that can be very decisive, I think. Anyway, so I had a chat to this guy and I was called for a second interview and I finally met my manager and someone from HR. And I got the job.

And I guess there's an interesting part to the story, right, where there was someone who was more qualified, was there? To get the job?

Yeah, I..

And they chose you. And this is one of those things that's important to share. Because it's not always about qualifications.

Yeah. So for the hospital, I didn't, I didn't have enough qualifications. Like I didn't have the experience. And I remember asking feedback. I was like, 'What happened?' And she said, 'You don't have we really liked you, but you don't have this and that'. And for the school, and then for the Oxygen school, I had the experience they were asking for. But I was told later, after I got the job that what really got me in was my personality. Was, you know, how is it going seem to be and my boss was like, Look, I initially thought she's worked for the embassy. She's done so much. This is probably very boring for her.'.

Were they worried about your English as well, or was that just not a concern?

I don't think that was ever like, you know, a thing.

And I don't mean that because I'm trying to infer that your English is bad, but because it was obviously a foreign language. And I think that the person you were saying you got the job over was a native speaker.

For the music school? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, no, I think the person had the right experience and was an Australian person, but the personality didn't match. And what I was told later was like, 'Look, really we really liked your CV and everything, but we had someone, as, you know, as good as you, what got you in was how, you know, friendly and easy going and like, you know, we were very relaxed.' You were, when we started sort of like the interview was over and we were just chatting. We were like sharing about your life, asking questions. So that was really a really good thing.

Because didn't you have that interesting story about your boss's boss telling your boss, the manager effectively like..

Yeah. So he told me later was, I was a bit, you know, like thinking this girl has been, you know, she worked for the embassy and everything. She's going to find it boring. She's going to leave us in six months. Let's get someone who's going to stay. That, I totally understand that. And then the other girl, the other person said, 'No, she's your she's your person. She's got a personality. She has the qualifications. Give her a chance.' And thank God she, she, I got the job.

And yeah, so that was sort of the interview process and everything. It depends on the job. It can be very, very formal. I went for an interview with The Gordon, remember, for a position as well. They were super friendly, they seemed at the time they were very impressed with the experience I had and everything. Like really, really just like, 'Oh my God, you're amazing. You're going to be great.' Like, I literally, literally felt like I got the job the moment I left.

Oh, you did?

I did! Not to be like, 'Oh my God, I'm so good.' Not at all. What I would say is like, you get a really good vibe from people. And I did get the job, but..

You knocked it back.

Their description wasn't, the description they had on the application wasn't very accurate. Like the sort of job I would be doing was going to be very unreliable in terms of income.

And you had to travel to Ballarat and Bendigo for what, a handful of hours of work. Maybe multiple times a week. So there would have been more travel time than..

Than actual actual work, yeah.

So I remember talking to you about that and being like, I'm on this, you know, it's a pretty good wage or whatever. And I'm like, 'Yeah, but if you're travelling for as many hours as you're working, cut the wage in half'..

Yeah.

In terms of our rate. So if you're on $50 an hour and you have to work, you know, four hours, but it takes four hours to get there and home, you're working eight hours for $25 an hour.

And that was the thing I sort of have, I had to learn. It doesn't matter. Like you have to balance all those things. I applied for jobs in Melbourne. The pay was amazing, but I was like, 'Oh yeah, I can do it. I can get the train.' And you were like, 'Look, for the first week it's going to be fine, but you're going to get so tired. Imagine being like for an hour in the train every day.'.

Well, nah, yeah.

To go and to come back.

When I was, when I was, when my mum had breast cancer and I was doing my bachelor's degree, the last year of my bachelor's degree, I came and lived home at home with Mum and Dad. And mum's fine now. She's been, you know, 12, 13 years without any issues. But I was commuting from Ocean Grove to Melbourne Uni on a daily basis and it was four hours. There and back. Every single day, four hours there and back. So you would drive to Geelong, get on the train, get the tram, then finally get to the university.

And then once you finished you would get the tram, get the train, then have to drive home and each day it would be a huge chunk of your day. Yeah.

I was, at the time, at the time I was applying, I was like, 'Oh my God, so good salary, I'll go for it!' And there were jobs that I really wanted to get, like, 'Oh my God, I can, I can do it like I can. That's such a good thing.'.

Well you could have if we'd lived closer. Yeah, but I didn't take into account, like, into consideration that commuting is such a big thing. We don't live near Melbourne. Like we, you know, like that. I can just take the bus and go.

Well I think one thing to mention too, and there's probably a lot of women who've had kids that are listening to this episode, that will probably understand or at least, you know, will benefit from hearing about it. Is that getting a job was so important to you. Because you felt like, I don't want to just be a mother that lives at home, right? Like there seems to be something that was going on identity-wise with you.

Yeah, true.

And you find it so, so, so important to have your own job, to be earning your own money, to have that sense of responsibility. And, you know, it felt like when you weren't working full time. You felt, it felt like as the husband, that you didn't feel like you were contributing properly?

I did feel this way. Absolutely. I felt like everything I was doing wasn't enough. It would come and go. Some days I'd be like, 'Oh yeah, my God, I do so much.' And you always be like, 'You're such a good mom and everything.' But other days I would be 'I don't feel, it doesn't feel right to get this thing that I really want because I don't want to spend the money that was not mine.'.

That was the, yeah. But that was the hardest thing, I think, to get through to you is like, it's our money. The money that I earn whilst you are a stay at home mum is only able to be earned because you're helping me go to work.

But it's so embedded. Like, it's something so hard to break.

Yes.

And I also, like now that I'm so into the like, the routine of like I go to work and I come back like I- it's such a big thing for me. It's such an important part of my life to be able to socialise.

Well, this is what I was saying to you I think, the whole time as well. I'm like, there's, one thing is you get to make your own money, but two, you get a break from the kids and you're doing something that's different that isn't to do with. You know, there's one thing for the kids to not be at home and you're still at home, but you're still cleaning, cooking, you know, folding clothes or it's still in that environment. So the fact that you get to leave that environment completely and at least not think about it much, or as much, is a huge thing.

Yeah, you never..

You get to define yourself a bit differently too, because you have this thing that you're working on, that you're doing that isn't related to, you know, the family and everything.

Yeah, it is.

And the socialising.

I completely understand mums who don't want to go back to work because some days. I mean when my three and a half year old is like, 'Mummy, I really don't want you to go', crying. I'm like, 'I'm going to quit today and I'm not going to work ever again' because it breaks your heart. But also being able to provide for them, to help with, you know, the, contribute financially, to get the things we need and that we want. And also having this shift of like, 'I don't feel like I deserve to spend money on me.' So like, 'Oh my God, yes, I'm going to get a haircut!' Like just because it's so, it's so important, I think.

This is what I was pushing you for so long. But then also with that, the kids need to learn that that, you know, mummy isn't just always here at all times to do whatever they want to do. And that it's important for them to get used to you not being at home. And for you to also be like, 'My life is defined not just by the children and their needs. I have my own interests and my own life separate from that'. Because I think that was a very big thing for you.

But for also a lot of women who have children is that their identity and life effectively 100% overlaps with the children.

Yeah.

And you kind of lose yourself a bit like..

You do.

I think you and I are pretty different in that I'm much more willing to spend money on myself, follow my own interests, put down pretty hard boundaries with, you know, what I'm willing to do and not do when it comes to, you know, personal time versus shared time. But I don't think you're very good at that at all.

And I think and I don't mean this in a horrible way, but you are much more about giving 100% of yourself.

Yeah.

To the children, to the family and everything. And I'm always like, you need to spend more time, more money, more energy on yourself. Get away, get a hobby, go do something else. Because as good as it as it is that you spend so much time with us all, especially the children, you end up stressed out.

You, in general, people end up more stressed out if you don't have that sort of time to recuperate and spend with yourself.

There'll be like, I'm pretty sure there's so many mums out there who would like to be able to like they don't want to go to work. They would rather stay home with the kids and that is absolutely fine. Like I, some days I really do just want to stay home with my kids and I appreciate the time.

I really wish you would too!

That time, I really came to appreciate time with them much more because I'm not so, you know, depending on, on what phase we're going through. But some days my cup is full. It's like full and yours is not. So we can sort of have this..

Sometimes they're both full.

Yeah, we do have this sort of like, 'All right, I'll take over now and you can recharge' sort of thing. But if you want to go back to work, for those listening, I took a very slow sort of gradually putting myself out there. It was, I didn't go straight away for a full time job. Like I, I knew I couldn't do it. Like I couldn't be away from my kids straight away for so long. Like, it had to be something much more gradual.

And the other thing I wanted to mention is I started as a part-time worker employee at this place, and I became full time recently. So I don't know, like I don't remember. In Brazil, I, when I worked there, it was like I was a trainee. And then I had the possibility. There was a chance of, 'Oh, you can get hired or you might not get hired.' Casual jobs are not a thing in Brazil at all. At least seven years ago when I left, not.. Even like, here? Your school kids. Like, high school kids. They're 15. They're trying to get a job.

Yeah.

Not a thing in Brazil at all.

Really?

No, there's not a thing. You don't don't.

But how do they- I guess, I guess a big thing. You know, we're sort of going off on different tangents, but I guess a big thing in Brazil is that you have a lot more impoverished kind of people that probably want the jobs that in Australia we would otherwise have kids do.

Yeah, exactly. So..

And we also have pretty strict rules with minimum wage and ages. So if you're not, that's why if you go to McDonald's, everyone there is under 18 because they don't have to pay them very much.

No, not not so much in Brazil like you see. Yeah, like everyone's trying to get a job and it's pretty hard. So you don't have that sort of, 'Oh, this is just, you know, school age kids or whatever.' No, everyone's fighting for that position.

But what I wanted to say was things change a lot. I feel like here, one, it's a much more relaxed environment. The work environment is much more relaxed from my experience. I know people who have, who've had horrible experiences here. From my experience, it's always been really good bosses, really good environment. People making sure, 'Make sure you get a break', make sure you know, like..

So you didn't have that in Brazil?

They didn't have that at all! It was like you, if they can keep you there Sunday to Sunday working, there's no time for you as an individual to exist. It's like, 'You're a worker!'

I wonder how much that is related to. And again, I don't know much about Brazil and work, but does the government get involved with, you know, abuses from bosses? And there..

Yeah, there are laws on it. They're very strict laws. But still the cul- I'm talking more about the culture of like you're scared of your boss. I'm not scared of my boss, You know what I mean?

Well, he's more of a friend, right here.

It's so different! Like you're always walking on eggshells around your boss and everything. I don't feel this way here. I never felt. Not this. Only this job. Like every job I have had here.

Maybe when you're working at the embassy, you did. Because you had Brazilian bosses..

But even then it was the Australian way of working. So it was so good. And the other thing I wanted to say, and that became from part time, I became full time, so that sort of status can change. They might hire you as a part time, and if you do a really good job, it might become full time. Or you might, you might start as a trainee and then you become, you know, a what..

Do you want to talk about..

Sort of..

..talk about what happened there? So you got you got hired to do a part time job and you were doing, what, three days a week?

I was doing four days a week.

Four days a week?

Yeah.

That's right. And you weren't working the Friday. And the hours were shorter, though, for some days, right? Because of that?

Yeah.

Because it was part time. So how did you end up turning the part time job into a full time job?

So the girl who was working with me, she had to leave. She decided to leave. And then. I, what I saw was, 'Look, they can hire someone else to do 12 hours a week.' That's, that's 12 hours. That's what I'm covering now, which makes me full time. They can hire someone new to work 12 extra hours or I can become full time.

And that means they don't have to train someone else.

And I was like, look, if I want to show them that I'm willing to stay here and work here for, you know, for a while, that I'm committed to this position, everything. I, if I get offered the, the position that, like, full time position, I'll take it. And I remember asking you, what do you think? And it didn't change much with the time I spent with the kids because I just included the Friday on my roster.

Where they're at Day-care anyway.

Yeah, they're at day-care anyway. But it did take my me-time from me. Like, Fridays were the days I would catch up on cleaning the house and I would do things..

I love how you overlap that with me-time.

No, but like I feel good if I'm like the house is clean, like..

You get to listen to music or a podcast or chill out.

..I'm doing my thing..

..putter around.

Like, it's still like I know it's not resting, but it would make me feel good to be like, house is clean, I can cook dinner from scratch for the kids. And, you know, and I don't have that anymore. So it's been another thing that we have to sort of get used to. Do things a little bit, little bit by little bit, as we go throughout the week. Like all the laundry that accumulates on the corridor and other things just take a little bit every day because you don't have one day that we can both dedicate for that sort of like cleaning the house or it's, yeah. And I think that's how it is for most people..

You just have to make it work.

And you choose your battles as well. Like I'm not, like, I really wish I had the energy to put the kids to sleep like 8:30, 9:00 PM And I'm like, okay, now I'm going to clean the bathroom. Like, I can probably do that, but..

Tap out! Time to sleep.

I'm tired. I spent a whole day dealing with screaming kids. I did clean whilst I was doing that and I did all the things. And I'm just like, I'm going to sleep. And sometimes I sleep trying to put them to sleep. I lie down with Noah and I fall asleep.

Yeah, and you'll come out a few hours later and be like, 'Oh, hey, Dadda'.

So, yeah, it's. It's hard. Life with small kids is hard.

So lastly, obviously we're a language podcast. What has it been like getting these jobs and your English? Having English as a second language? Like, do you want to start with working at the golf club first? What was that like?

It was great! I loved this job. Really. If it wasn't so hard on my body. Because I'm not, I'm not 20 anymore, you know, it's.

Well, you were standing up, walking around, moving things..

..standing up all day, and they were really like, 'Oh my God, you work so hard!' Because I didn't like to feel..

You're like, 'I'm Brazilian!'

No, I mean..

'Of course I work hard!'

There's something supposed to be done. I don't want my boss to ask me to do it. I just go and do it. And I felt like some people were very stuck in their own ways of, like, just, you know, turn a blind eye to this. If they ask about it, fine. But I was just like, 'No!' Like, so every night after the service was done, like dinner service was done, I started mopping the floor. And it's a big restau- it's a big kitchen and with people walking everywhere. So we were like sort of cleaning. And then someone walks over and you do it again.

And after that I had all the dishes from like, I don't know, 100 guests that came to have dinner. Like, everything to be washed. So it was really hard. But language wise, I..

Did you get to use English much in that job?

I did! I did talk to a lot of people. Not the clients, but, you know,

Yeah, but in the kitchen..

..workers and everything. Yeah. I never had any issues at all at the school. Though there were funny. There were a few. I mean embarrassing slash funny situations where I mispronounced a couple of things. But again, my being a, not being a native speaker, has never been an issue.

I've never felt like my bosses or anyone at work were like discriminating against me because I don't. English is not my first language. Um, we do. I do make fun of myself with my accent. People notice I have an accent. I do say things wrong and my boss will laugh, but we are just so..

Can you give us an example?

So I'll give you a classic example.

Everyone's listening and they're like, 'Come on, man. Spill the beans.'.

There was this customer called Murray, which is spelled M U double R A Y, right.

Murray.

To me, it's Murray (moo-ray). To me, it's like literally Murray. So I've been calling this gentleman Murray for weeks! And weeks! And I had to call him several times. You know, his child was learning an instrument. I had to chat to him. And every time I would call him Murray.

And he never corrected you.

He never corrected me. He was a friendless person. And then one day, I don't even, I don't- I think my boss had to speak to him. And then I went like, 'Oh, yeah. Murray!' And he was..

It's such an old name too. You wouldn't hear this very often.

And he was like, 'What?' I was like, 'Murray. I spoke to him the other day'. And he just laughed so much. He was like, 'Sonia. Sonia, it's Murray (muh-ree).'

Murray.

'Murray (muh-ree) like the river.' I was like, 'What river?'

The Murray (moo-ray) River!

'The Murray River!' And I was like, 'No.' And I wrote it on a piece of paper. Like, I'm going to ask Pete. And I remember getting in the car and just showing you the little piece..

'How do you say this now?'.

'How do you say this?' And then you started laughing. Because I think you felt like, oh, my God, she said something, something else. That was a funny one. That is always someone's name that I can't pronounce. And I..

..there's a lot of foreigners too, right. Or people from different..

Yeah.

So even a native speaker would have trouble. Like you've got a lot of Indians and Sri Lankans and you know, people from Chinese, people coming in. There's names that you're going to read and you're going to be like, 'I just do not know how to say this'.

Wait, we have this joke at work. So when it's someone from, like non Australians, I'm allowed to make mistakes. Like my boss is like look,

Yeah, only because..

..Have a difficult..

Only because he makes the same mistake.

They have a difficult, it's a difficult spelling. Like I, like fair enough. But then you get someone like this other lady. Her name is Marie. It's always Maria, Murray. Anyway, and it's spelled M A R double E.

Yeah.

And I wrote it.

You were just calling her 'mare'.

M A U R E E muh-ree. Muh-ree, like with a new-.

Mauree?

Mauree. And I was like, 'What?' And yeah, sometimes I go to work and I get there and I was like, 'What happened?' And Tony, like, 'Look, person didn't get an email because 'factory' has a C when you..' and I was like, 'Oh yeah, of course. I was thinking in Portuguese, sorry!' It happens.

But it all depends like on the environment you are in. Like, I don't feel- if anything, I haven't made a mistake that is like, 'Oh my God, that is so wrong.'.

'You're fired.'.

I disrespected someone or anything. Everything is sort of like funny. And people know that I have an accent. They come to the reception, they will say like, 'Oh my God, where are you from?' And I got the other day there was this gentleman, he speaks Portuguese, from Portugal.

Oh, gross.

But he's like,

That's a joke..

You know, like have a little sort of talk. Like a little chat in Portuguese.

You can understand him?!

I didn't understand him. It was really funny. So, yeah, I don't, I don't know. But it's funny. Sometimes someone calls in and they like, 'Look, you know, I was told this and this' and Tony, my boss is like, 'Who? Who was that?' He's like, 'Oh, she has an accent.' And he's like, 'All right, I know who spoke to you.' So yeah, it's very, um, it's very easy to pick on this, but I never felt like it was an issue.

Yeah, it's just. Well, I guess it's the different workplaces are going to be different, right? But at least you've found one where they're accepting, of diversity like that, and have no real issues. And you just sort of have to go with people's strengths and help people with their weaknesses. Right?

There was one. I've been there for almost a year and there was one person, one time, that was rude to me because of my accent. I don't think..

This is on the phone?

Yeah, on the phone, which I struggle. I'm pretty sure no native speakers do..

I hate it and I'm a native speaker.

It's hard. It's hard to understand people over the phone. And then I was saying- she wasn't, I don't believe she was trying to be mean. She was upset. She was frustrated because something didn't work out. And I was chatting to her. And then I was saying, 'Oh, yeah, Teacher Caitlyn. Teacher Caitlyn' And then before I hang, hang up.

Hung, hung up.

Hung up. She goes, 'Oh, by the way, it's not Caitlyn (keyt-leen). It's Caitlyn (keyt-lin).' She corrected my pronunciation there.

You would really get worried over that. Caitlyn versus Caitlyn?

Caitlyn. And I was like, 'Oh, okay.' Like, she she wanted to make a point, sort of thing. Like, I had the last- again, I don't take those things personally. Like, I yeah, I just, the only thing that makes me sometimes come back home and feel like, 'Oh my God, it wasn't really nice' it's when I make a mistake.

It's nothing to do with language, but like, I made someone's life harder. They had to drive and there were no lessons. Or that makes me like frustrated. But if someone's criticised me for the way I speak, I literally don't care. I would just laugh. I would just be like, look..

So all right. Finishing up the episode because we're gone for about almost 40 minutes. What advice would you have for people in Australia who don't speak English as a native language trying to get jobs? You know, because I think a lot of people worry it. Especially if it's the first sort of job or the first job in a long time. They feel like it's, you know, an impossible task or they're going to get discriminated against or it's just not going to happen. It's going to be too hard. What advice do you have for them?

So I think first, first of all, work on your CV. Have a really good CV like that is clean and very concise, concise. Pages and pages of, you know, your experience. They're not going to read through this so..

Well that front page has to be very concise..

..it's very 'to the point'. When you're applying for jobs online, really read the description of the job. Do your research on like what company I'm trying to apply for. Like, what are the values? They're all lots of companies now have the policies and the value, values. And they will ask questions based on those things. And you just repeat the same words! You write on your CV the same words they use on the website. So that's a little..

And it's almost like that's how you get in, right? Like that's the, what is it, the, you know, the ticket to entrance or whatever.

Yeah.

There's an expression I can't think of, but you need to show that you've done at least the bare minimum of working out what..

You did your homework, you went to the website, you know what you're talking about. Like, and the other thing, obviously I, I don't think rehearsing answers work. But I would when I was applying for jobs, I would be like, All right, so there is this thing called the STAR method. So you start like you describe a Situation, they will ask something 'What would you do in this situation?' Then you start like you describe the situation. You tell them how you would act in this, you know, situation, and then you give a Result.

So it's sort of like storytelling. You have a little introduction, the middle bit, where things, you know, develop and then you conclude with, you know, what you had to do. And anyway, so if you, if you Google it, it's a, it's a thing for like jobs and interviews. So I did a lot of that and just go and just have a very, very positive attitude when you go for the interview.

Yeah.

Because there might be what gets you in.

Just as you were saying, the Oxygen, right. Your personality was a big part of it. If you had had everything else on paper, but you had a very bland personality or something, they may not have hired you.

And like, it depends. Like obviously when I apply for jobs at the hospital, I wasn't very, you know, like bubbly and giggling and anything because it's a, it's a formal environment in a music school. So you sort of like have to have this understanding of you're applying for different jobs at different places. You've got to have almost like this persona that you come, you bring with you and you feel the vibe. Like these people are trying to make me very comfortable. Like, I think I can relax a little bit more and look people in the eye.

Don't make stuff up because they, they. Yeah, obviously. No.

Yeah. Well I imagine that getting the job and then them looking up and checking something you'd made up and then finding out.

Yeah.

.. that you lied.

And just talk and ask questions. And be very friendly and positive. I think that is, that is very important as well.

Do you also think it's really important that you applied for a whole bunch that you failed at? And I guess fail is probably the wrong word, but that you didn't, you didn't get the jobs.

I feel like if you're applying for, let's say, the health industry, the more you apply for those jobs, you start to see the patterns.

Yeah.

Like with the with the, uh, selection criteria I told you about. The more you do it, the easier it becomes. Because sometimes they're like ten questions you have to answer. So obviously you can't use the same answers. But if you've been doing it for a long time, you sort of like, okay, same thing, storytelling. Start with a little bit of an introduction, develop your answer and then you finalise with the results you would like to achieve if you had the position. So that sort of thing.

So I think it's important to apply for as many as you can, but don't waste time applying for jobs you would not take.

Yeah, obviously apply for the ones that you want.

Yes. Yeah, I made that mistake. So I was wasting time on like 'This is a job in Melbourne that I really like', but actually I'm not. I didn't have any plans or how am I going to drive to this place. So but anyway, it was good to get the experience of like applying for jobs and doing the selection criteria because most companies will do it nowadays. Hospitality, not so much.

It's a lot less formal.

Yeah, but yeah, you do. You do get some that really require you to put a lot of time in.

Did it help you with like just getting used to being in the interviews then too, because you, you would imagine like doing. I feel like there's a lot of overlap here with something like the IELTS exam or the PTE exam. Probably the IELTS exam in particular, because the speaking section is where you actually have someone that you're speaking with. The more you do it, the better you get.

Yeah.

But also, as you were talking about before, with doing your homework for specific jobs, like with IELTS, you have to learn how to pass IELTS. You don't just sort of go in blind. I could go and do IELTS but fail it or at least not do very well even as a native speaker, because I don't know what the test is looking for.

Exactly.

Whereas if you go away and do your homework about what? How do I actually do well at the test, more so than how do I have the best English in the world?

Yeah.

And it feels like it's the same thing for a lot of jobs. It's like, how do I do well at job interviews? What's the process of..

And going for interviews is so scary, but it's so good that you, even if you think 'My chances are very slim, I'm not probably not going to get this job', that another 50 to 200 people trying to get the same position, go. Because you're going to get the experience. And next time when you really want, when you have more chances, you feel more relaxed.

Yeah.

For the interview.

That's it. When it's a job that you really want.

Yeah.

You've got the experience up your belt. Under your belt, so that you can feel comfortable.

The other thing is, I don't know if you can mention like, SEEK and what is the other one?

I don't know.

That you find jobs? Uh, job seek something like that?

Yeah.

I think Seek was the one I used the most.

Yeah.

And most companies will use that as well to advertise for jobs. But yeah, LinkedIn. Linkedin?

Linkedin.

Linkedin. It's really good too. So I found some really good options there and I applied for. But yeah.

Cool. All right. Any final thoughts?

Good luck! Don't, don't give up!

Hope that helps.

You got this!

Awesome. Well, thanks, Kelly. It's been a while between drinks. It's good to have you back. We'll have to talk about some other things. Like how the kids are going, bilingual kids. And..

Let's see, let's wait for Joey to see the paediatricians and then you can talk about that. Maybe some. Yeah, that would be that would be a good.

Yeah. We've got lots to chat about, guys. I feel like we complain too much though, about our family life at the moment. But anyway, thanks for joining us. Hopefully you got a lot out of it and we'll chat to you next time.

Bye!

See ya!